ISIL, ISIS, Daesh discussion thread.

Moley said:
Is anyone really convinced she is a risk to national security? Yes. All the judges who have seen the evidence and ruled on it.

If she committed crimes in Syria as opposed to the jurisdiction of the UK courts she should be tried in Syria - we have no legal standing on crimes committed there.
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The commission didn’t rule on if she was a threat to national security they ruled on if the process had been correctly followed they made it clear that the decision about wether or not she was a threat to national security remained with the Secretary of State.
 
a1ex2001 said:
The commission didn’t rule on if she was a threat to national security they ruled on if the process had been correctly followed they made it clear that the decision about wether or not she was a threat to national security remained with the Secretary of State.
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Yea, which is fair enough regarding the stripping of her British Citizenship if that's their ruling, especially as she has Bangladeshi citizenship and isnt stateless. They also said

In the commission's opinion, there is a credible suspicion that Ms Begum was recruited, transferred and then harboured for the purpose of sexual exploitation.
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Nasher said:
Judges tin the UK tend to side with the individual in this situations and they have all said no. There must be a good reason for it. We won't get to see all the evidence, intelligence etc.

Most of the Brits who did this are now dead, so she has been lucky.
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None of this post is correct as for the second part, 360 approx have come back to this country.
 
a1ex2001 said:
The commission didn’t rule on if she was a threat to national security they ruled on if the process had been correctly followed they made it clear that the decision about wether or not she was a threat to national security remained with the Secretary of State.
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Yep, actually you are right on that - and the Supreme court ruled that when the appeal court allowed Begums appeal against the original commission decision against her, the appeal court was wrong on a number of counts including:

It erred in its approach to the appeal against the dismissal of Begum's application for judicial review of the Home Secretary's refusal of leave to enter, making its own assessment of the requirements of national security, despite having no relevant evidence before it or any relevant findings of fact. Its approach failed to give the Home Secretary's assessment the respect it should have received.
It was mistaken in its finding that, when an individual's right to a fair hearing of an appeal came into conflict with the requirements of national security, the right to a fair hearing must prevail. If a vital public interest, such as public safety, makes it impossible for a case to be fairly heard, then it cannot ordinarily be heard. The appeal should therefore be stayed until the appellant is in a position to play an effective part in it without public safety being compromised. In this case, it was not known how long it might be before that was possible.

So basically Begum has to prove she is not a threat to public safety before she can be allowed back into the UK - which of course is what all the BBC propaganda recently, painting her as a naïve kid with no agency or personal responsibility rather than a member of a terrorist cult, is all about.
 
StriderX said:
Oh she's not stateless then?

Ah well problem solved.
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She has the legal right to apply for Bangladeshi citizenship but has decided to remain 'stateless' and live in that camp obviously because she has been told it will help her appeals.

If she wanted to she could have entered Bangladesh by now as a citizen.

For me, had she not made those disgusting comments about the Manchester Arena bombing at the age of 19, I might have been persuaded. It's all very well saying we shouldn't condemn a 15 year old but by the age of 19 you are an adult.

www.independent.co.uk

Isis teenage bride says Manchester Arena bombing was ‘justified’ because of the Syria airstrikes

Teenager parrots Isis’s propaganda statements claiming responsibility for global terror attacks
www.independent.co.uk www.independent.co.uk
 
Superficial said:
She has the legal right to apply for Bangladeshi citizenship but has decided to remain 'stateless' and live in that camp obviously because she has been told it will help her appeals.

If she wanted to she could have entered Bangladesh by now as a citizen.

For me, had she not made those disgusting comments about the Manchester Arena bombing at the age of 19, I might have been persuaded. It's all very well saying we shouldn't condemn a 15 year old but by the age of 19 you are an adult.

www.independent.co.uk

Isis teenage bride says Manchester Arena bombing was ‘justified’ because of the Syria airstrikes

Teenager parrots Isis’s propaganda statements claiming responsibility for global terror attacks
www.independent.co.uk www.independent.co.uk
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Her right to Bangladeshi citizenship may well now have lapsed as she is past 21, but it was always a really dodgy decision to remove her British citizenship given that she had never visited Bangladesh or held a passport. It is a technicality that allowed Javid to do something pretty despicable.

Young people say stupid things all the time and young people that have been exposed to cults say really dumb things!
 
Moley said:
Yep, actually you are right on that - and the Supreme court ruled that when the appeal court allowed Begums appeal against the original commission decision against her, the appeal court was wrong on a number of counts including:

It erred in its approach to the appeal against the dismissal of Begum's application for judicial review of the Home Secretary's refusal of leave to enter, making its own assessment of the requirements of national security, despite having no relevant evidence before it or any relevant findings of fact. Its approach failed to give the Home Secretary's assessment the respect it should have received.
It was mistaken in its finding that, when an individual's right to a fair hearing of an appeal came into conflict with the requirements of national security, the right to a fair hearing must prevail. If a vital public interest, such as public safety, makes it impossible for a case to be fairly heard, then it cannot ordinarily be heard. The appeal should therefore be stayed until the appellant is in a position to play an effective part in it without public safety being compromised. In this case, it was not known how long it might be before that was possible.

So basically Begum has to prove she is not a threat to public safety before she can be allowed back into the UK - which of course is what all the BBC propaganda recently, painting her as a naïve kid with no agency or personal responsibility rather than a member of a terrorist cult, is all about.
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We could allow her back and lock her up until she has faces trial for her crimes and she could be detained indefinitely under counter terrorist laws if she is shown to be a threat to national security there is no need for her to have been abandoned in a refugee camp, it is plain odd when you look at the number of other fighters who have returned to the country. The government could have course put the whole argument to bed by releasing the advice that shows how she is so dangerous she can never be allowed to return to the country of her birth!
 
a1ex2001 said:
Her right to Bangladeshi citizenship may well now have lapsed as she is past 21, but it was always a really dodgy decision to remove her British citizenship given that she had never visited Bangladesh or held a passport. It is a technicality that allowed Javid to do something pretty despicable.

Young people say stupid things all the time and young people that have been exposed to cults say really dumb things!
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As Javid himself was wont to say recently, "So what?" :)

I think this is my first time quoting "Twitter", but it's been another long day and I can't be bothered finding a more virtuous source of this man's contempt.

 
I'm assuming she is still considered a credible threat to not allow back. They might feel that the threat is also to social cohesion if the general public would strongly disagree with her return is it worth the damage that would do. There are better hills to die on as they say.
 
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Chris Wilson said:
As Javid himself was wont to say recently, "So what?" :)

I think this is my first time quoting "Twitter", but it's been another long day and I can't be bothered finding a more virtuous source of this man's contempt.

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My point is and always has been that she should never have had her citizenship revoked it was a nonsensical knee jerk decision that has caused this ridiculous and expensive circus. This cycle will continue to drag on for years until eventually a Home Secretary will use their power to return her Citizenship just to end the farce.
 
Moley said:
Are you really trying to suggest that 15 years olds don't know the difference between right and wrong? You might want to stop digging.

One of the decisions we don't allow children to make - if we are decent parents - is the decision to run away from home and join a death cult. That her parents failed to stop this is appalling.

Do you even know who radicalised her?
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Do you understand that running away and joining a cult involves a level of indoctrination and sometimes grooming when involving a child that a young adult may not be equipped to deal with?

I’m not digging I’m just pointing out something that happens to people all the time, the difference in most cases it’s not isis. I understand the lack of sympathy like I said it’s perfectly understandable for anyone to have the opinions they have about her, she joined isis as a result of said indoctrination.

It’s just funny to me that most people understand young people are vulnerable to being lead along and groomed. Yet completely just throw that out the window with her because of the extreme nature of where she went.
 
My biggest issue with this is plenty of people have returned to the U.K. from Syria and faced trial here and this case is only being treated differently because of the media hoo-ha and the government’s constant need to pander to the lowest common denominator.
 
Allnamestaken said:
Do you understand that running away and joining a cult involves a level of indoctrination and sometimes grooming when involving a child that a young adult may not be equipped to deal with?

I’m not digging I’m just pointing out something that happens to people all the time, the difference in most cases it’s not isis. I understand the lack of sympathy like I said it’s perfectly understandable for anyone to have the opinions they have about her, she joined isis as a result of said indoctrination.

It’s just funny to me that most people understand young people are vulnerable to being lead along and groomed. Yet completely just throw that out the window with her because of the extreme nature of where she went.
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You might want to have a read of the Counter Extremism Projects' report on her and the Council of Europes' Committee of Experts on Terrorism report on 'The Roles of Women in Daesh'.

She wasn't indoctrinated or groomed, she was recruited after seeking them out directly. She worked with Sharmeena Beggum and Aqsa Mahmood to contact Daesh and make plans to go to Syria. They self-radicalised as women joining these cults often do (it's in the report).
Their role in this cannot be simply dismissed as teenage angst manifesting itself as rebellious behaviour nor are they zero-agency grooming victims.
Beggum made her bed, she can live with the consequences.
 
One More Solo said:
My biggest issue with this is plenty of people have returned to the U.K. from Syria and faced trial here and this case is only being treated differently because of the media hoo-ha and the government’s constant need to pander to the lowest common denominator.
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Exactly, we've let far more dangerous twonks back in than her thats for sure. Just wait till the next "event" we're probably due one soon....
 
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