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It looks like the 'real' /affordable RDNA3 + next gen NV desktop launch won't launch until September. Thoughts?
- Thread starter g67575
- Start date
Caporegime
So, it's 20% or more boost from RDNA2>RDNA3 at the same CU count.
Edit - It's not a perfect comparison though, because the 6700S is a 28 CU GPU...
So, probably more like 15-20%.
So the RX 7700 XT and RX 7800 XT should be about 20% faster than the last gen.
Edit - It's not a perfect comparison though, because the 6700S is a 28 CU GPU...
So, probably more like 15-20%.
So the RX 7700 XT and RX 7800 XT should be about 20% faster than the last gen.
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Caporegime
What i find interesting is the rumoured RX 7950XT and RX 7950XTX.
MLID talked about AMD having fixed some issues with RDNA3 and were preparing for a retape of these GPU's with an increase in performance.
If you look at AMD's fresh RDNA3 APU's the performance of those is mind-blowing for what they are, perhaps soon we will see RDNA3 for how it was intended?
I hope so...
MLID talked about AMD having fixed some issues with RDNA3 and were preparing for a retape of these GPU's with an increase in performance.
If you look at AMD's fresh RDNA3 APU's the performance of those is mind-blowing for what they are, perhaps soon we will see RDNA3 for how it was intended?
I hope so...
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Caporegime
- Joined
- 18 Oct 2002
- Posts
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Same.
If that's the case we might see the early rdna3 being phased out very fast
Yeah, its why I am going to hold out for the 7950XT (no rush), I just hope the early adopters are not too ****** if there really is a fault and some silicon changes get these working as intended.
Caporegime
Some of you need to stop overhyping Navi 33 like all the overhype with beast mode Polaris cards - I told people where performance it would be like and it was accurate. The ones overhyping it got annoyed and dunked on Polaris.
It's basically a cloned Navi23 with some RDNA3 improvements on 6NM. It will run like an overclocked RX6650XT:
People forget the RX7900 series and 780M IGPs are made on TSMC 5NM class nodes. Navi 33 is made on a denser 7NM class node,so it might not clock as high.The reality is Navi 31,might have reduced the Infinity Cache amount but also it came with a massive jump in memory bandwidth. It had more shaders,higher clockspeeds. It also DOUBLED transistor count over Navi 21.Navi 33 is smaller than Navi 23 on a slightly denser 7NM class node. So the transistor count increase is probably minimal. The memory bandwidth has not increased either.
The RX6650XT has a boost clock of 2.6GHZ:
AMD Radeon RX 6650 XT Specs
AMD Navi 23, 2635 MHz, 2048 Cores, 128 TMUs, 64 ROPs, 8192 MB GDDR6, 2190 MHz, 128 bit
Even if they manage to get it to run consistently at 3GHZ,that is barely a 15% improvement there.
Add a few percent IPC improvement,and it hits RX6700XT/RX6750XT level performance. So even if were sold as a RX7600XT 16GB,it would be 20% to 25% improvement with more VRAM. Even if it was a 30% improvement,its OK not brilliant.
The move from the RX480 to the RX5600XT/RX5700XT was much bigger.
The issue is if that ROCm leak is true,AMD is trying to use Navi 33 in the RX7700XT. That only means they want to price hike Navi 33 to a higher tier than Navi 23.
So essentially RX6700XT/RX6750XT level performance for the same price in 2023,with a bit extra VRAM. But with all the issues the RX6600 class has as you increase resolution(and also a downgrade to a PCI-E 8X link).
Basically what Nvidia is also doing too.
With a doubling of transistors. Performance in games hasn't doubled.
Don't read into those peak figures. Read commentary on the changes in RDNA3,especially the dual issue nature of the SIMDs,meaning it's not always possible to extract that peak performance figure due to bottlenecks:
Microbenchmarking AMD’s RDNA 3 Graphics Architecture
Editor’s Note (6/14/2023): We have a new article that reevaluates the cache latency of Navi 31, so please refer to that article for some new latency data.
chipsandcheese.com
Have people forgotten,Ampere also "doubled" FP32 performance too,but in reality it was just more like an accounting methodology change. For instance using the new Nvidia methodology my RTX3060TI has nearly 2.3X the FP32 performance of an RTX2060 Super:
NVIDIA GeForce RTX 3060 Ti Specs
NVIDIA GA104, 1665 MHz, 4864 Cores, 152 TMUs, 80 ROPs, 8192 MB GDDR6, 1750 MHz, 256 bit
NVIDIA GeForce RTX 2060 SUPER Specs
NVIDIA TU106, 1650 MHz, 2176 Cores, 136 TMUs, 64 ROPs, 8192 MB GDDR6, 1750 MHz, 256 bit
Except in reality it's closer to 40% on average.
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Oh well, at least if the 7600 XT is 32 CUs, it won't be any worse than a 6600 XT:
AMD Radeon RX 6600 XT Specs
AMD Navi 23, 2589 MHz, 2048 Cores, 128 TMUs, 64 ROPs, 8192 MB GDDR6, 2000 MHz, 128 bitwww.techpowerup.com
We know the 7600 is an 8GB card, so it looks likely.
It terms of the performance, the FP32 processing power is about 2x that of the RX 6600 XT:
AMD Radeon RX 7600 Specs
AMD Navi 33, 2655 MHz, 2048 Cores, 128 TMUs, 64 ROPs, 8192 MB GDDR6, 2250 MHz, 128 bitwww.techpowerup.com
Basically, they can get a decent boost compared to Navi23, because the RDNA3 architecture is faster.
I wouldn't say we know what 7600 actually is.
We know N33 is 128 bit which mean 8GB or 16GB and it seems logical that N33 will be used in the 7600 but should AMD decide that the 7700 can have 16GB of VRAM and be between 4060Ti and 4070 in price to really push the VRAM narrative then there is space for the 7600 to actually be a cut N32 with 12GB of VRAM and full N33 might end up being used in the 7500XT instead.
OTOH if N33 clocks really well with higher power and better cooling and somehow can manage to hit 6800 tier performance (still very very sceptical that this is the case) then a 16GB 7700XT based on N33 could also make sense but you do lose the option of a 12GB N32 based card unless you want a really wonky lineup.
I expect N33 to be used on 7600 and 7500 with N32 on 7800 and 7700 but there are other possibilities as well. Just depends what price AMD want associated with various names / performance tiers.
Caporegime
Some of you need to stop overhyping Navi 33 like all the overhype with beast mode Polaris cards - I told people where performance it would be like and it was accurate. The ones overhyping it got annoyed and dunked on Polaris.
It's basically a cloned Navi23 with some RDNA3 improvements on 6NM. It will run like an overclocked RX6650XT:
People forget the RX7900 series and 780M IGPs are made on TSMC 5NM class nodes. Navi 33 is made on a denser 7NM class node,so it might not clock as high.The reality is Navi 31,might have reduced the Infinity Cache amount but also it came with a massive jump in memory bandwidth. It had more shaders,higher clockspeeds. It also DOUBLED transistor count over Navi 21.Navi 33 is smaller than Navi 23 on a slightly denser 7NM class node. So the transistor count increase is probably minimal. The memory bandwidth has not increased either.
The RX6650XT has a boost clock of 2.6GHZ:
AMD Radeon RX 6650 XT Specs
AMD Navi 23, 2635 MHz, 2048 Cores, 128 TMUs, 64 ROPs, 8192 MB GDDR6, 2190 MHz, 128 bit
Even if they manage to get it to run consistently at 3GHZ,that is barely a 15% improvement there.
Add a few percent IPC improvement,and it hits RX6700XT/RX6750XT level performance. So even if were sold as a RX7600XT 16GB,it would be 20% to 25% improvement with more VRAM. Even if it was a 30% improvement,its OK not brilliant.
The move from the RX480 to the RX5600XT/RX5700XT was much bigger.
The issue is if that ROCm leak is true,AMD is trying to use Navi 33 in the RX7700XT. That only means they want to price hike Navi 33 to a higher tier than Navi 23.
So essentially RX6700XT/RX6750XT level performance for the same price in 2023,with a bit extra VRAM. But with all the issues the RX6600 class has as you increase resolution(and also a downgrade to a PCI-E 8X link).
Basically what Nvidia is also doing too.
With a doubling of transistors. Performance in games hasn't doubled.
Don't read into those peak figures. Read commentary on the changes in RDNA3,especially the dual issue nature of the SIMDs,meaning it's not always possible to extract that peak performance figure due to bottlenecks:
Microbenchmarking AMD’s RDNA 3 Graphics Architecture
Editor’s Note (6/14/2023): We have a new article that reevaluates the cache latency of Navi 31, so please refer to that article for some new latency data.
Have people forgotten,Ampere also "doubled" FP32 performance too,but in reality it was just more like an accounting methodology change. For instance using the new Nvidia methodology my RTX3060TI has nearly 2.3X the FP32 performance of an RTX2060 Super:
NVIDIA GeForce RTX 3060 Ti Specs
NVIDIA GA104, 1665 MHz, 4864 Cores, 152 TMUs, 80 ROPs, 8192 MB GDDR6, 1750 MHz, 256 bitNVIDIA GeForce RTX 2060 SUPER Specs
NVIDIA TU106, 1650 MHz, 2176 Cores, 136 TMUs, 64 ROPs, 8192 MB GDDR6, 1750 MHz, 256 bit
Except in reality it's closer to 40% on average.
CAT we know all this, we are not 5.
It has dual threads on the cores, like Hyper Threading, similar to how Nvidia did it with Ampere, only they count thiers as physical cores, we soon learned that didn't equate to a doubling of gaming performance.It will be what it will be, no harm in expressing hope
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Caporegime
Not if the ROCm leak is true and they are upselling Navi 33 and trying to sell it for £400 and then say they have 16GB instead of the RTX4060TI and declare victory.CAT we know all this, we are not 5.
It will be what it will be, no harm in expressing hope
This is entirely consistent with what they did with the RX7900XT which should have been the RX7800XT.
They should be easily be able to sell an RX7600XT 16GB for around £300. They are selling more expensive to make RX6700XT cards for near that, so their margins will probably go up.
MLID pointed AMD gaming margins are still the same despite the RX6000 series discounts.
With minimal effort they can probably increase sales, still have decent prices and make more money. It depends if the accountants get the last say.
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Caporegime
When did he say that about margins?
AMD published their financials just yesterday, margins are at 44%, that's down 6 points from last quarter, quite a chunk.
Caporegime
Look at the charts. The gaming segment revenue and margins hardly showed a decline. This is despite the selling prices of consoles and RX6000 dGPUs going down compared to the same period last year. So AMD selling those RX6650XT cards for £250 is not at a loss. How could it be when AMD was selling the RX5700 8GB and RX5600XT 6GB for under £300 in 2019? These used a much larger 7NM chip,when 7NM was more expensive and used a 256 bit memory bus,when GDDR6 was new and expensive.
So an RX7600XT(which is probably cheaper to made due to a smaller die),with 16GB of GDDR6 for £300ish(even £320) would be as profitable or more profitable than a £250 RX6650XT or £200 RX6600. So if we end up seeing a £400 Navi 33 product we know what the dGPU cartel is doing.
Most of that margin decline was due to the client CPU sales going down the drain,and probably discounts on Zen3 products. Yet,AMD still seems to be doing better in CPU margins despite undercutting Intel in most areas again.
As the guy from SemiWiki said a few days ago a lot of the costs companies like Nvidia,AMD,Intel,etc have are grossly overestimated on the internet. Remember end user sales of PC parts are probably at a much higher margin compared to companies like Dell, who will drive down costs,and are not swayed by RGB and Waifu Edition cards.
Navi 33 uses a 128 bit memory controller like Navi 23. It is basically an RDNA3 shrink of Navi 23 onto a modified 7NM class process node.
IIRC,there was noise about GDDR6/GDDR6X(or was it GDDR7?) offering mixed memory configurations but no one has implemented it.
Which is a shame!
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Associate
- Joined
- 13 Sep 2010
- Posts
- 2,251
"Super-RDNA3"
Caporegime
"Super-RDNA3"
There is already talked of an RDNA3+ or RDNA3.5 in some future AMD products.
Soldato
- Joined
- 14 Aug 2009
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- 3,099
It will be funny to see the pricing and gymnastics to justify it.
I doubt they would bother with more than 8GB of VRAM, it seems overkill on a N33 GPU. It's a 1080p class GPU (according to the AMD slides for N33 mobile).
16GB will be reserved for N32 graphics cards.
20GB and above for N31.
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Caporegime
It's as easy way to make the RTX4060 look a bit rubbish. Also AMD is using cheaper GDDR6 too.