It looks like the 'real' /affordable RDNA3 + next gen NV desktop launch won't launch until September. Thoughts?

[humbug]

Look at the charts. The gaming segment revenue and margins hardly showed a decline. This is despite the selling prices of consoles and RX6000 dGPUs going down compared to the same period last year. So AMD selling those RX6650XT cards for £250 is not at a loss. How could it be when AMD was selling the RX5700 8GB and RX5600XT 6GB for under £300 in 2019? These used a much larger 7NM chip,when 7NM was more expensive and used a 256 bit memory bus,when GDDR6 was new and expensive.

So an RX7600XT(which is probably cheaper to made due to a smaller die),with 16GB of GDDR6 for £300ish(even £320) would be as profitable or more profitable than a £250 RX6650XT or £200 RX6600. So if we end up seeing a £400 Navi 33 product we know what the dGPU cartel is doing.

Most of that margin decline was due to the client CPU sales going down the drain,and probably discounts on Zen3 products. Yet,AMD still seems to be doing better in CPU margins despite undercutting Intel in most areas again.

As the guy from SemiWiki said a few days ago a lot of the costs companies like Nvidia,AMD,Intel,etc have are grossly overestimated on the internet. Remember end user sales of PC parts are probably at a much higher margin compared to companies like Dell, who will drive down costs,and are not swayed by RGB and Waifu Edition cards.



Navi 33 uses a 128 bit memory controller like Navi 23. It is basically an RDNA3 shrink of Navi 23 onto a modified 7NM class process node.

IIRC,there was noise about GDDR6/GDDR6X(or was it GDDR7?) offering mixed memory configurations but no one has implemented it.

Which is a shame!

I did look at the results.

"Gaming down 6%, Semi-custom grew double digit Y/Y, more than off set by gaming graphics revenue"

In other words system's like the Asus Ally and Steam Deck bolstered the revenue this quarter, but weak gaming graphics revenue (dGPU's) pulled the lot down.

Its in my road to recovery thread, written in virtual ink, go see for yourself.

 

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

I did look at the results.

"Gaming down 6%, "Semi-custom grew double digit Y/Y, more than off set by game graphics revenue"

In other words system's like the Asus Ally and Steam Deck bolstered the revenue this quarter, but weak gaming graphics revenue (dGPU's) pulled the lot down.

Its in my road to revovery thread, written in virtual ink, good see for yourself.

The margins went down by 1% and a 6% decline in gaming revenue is nothing compared to the collapse in Nvidia gaming revenue:

https://images.anandtech.com/doci/18845/AMD%20Q1-23%20Earnings%20Slides_22.png

Nvidia gaming revenue collapsed by 46% despite the Switch,etc.

Don't try to push AMD "having" to price a Navi 33 at £350+ when its clear despite a reduction in console prices and dGPU prices,they haven't seen any sort of collapse in gaming revenue let alone margins. Don't be like those Nvidia uberfans trying to spin Nvidia "has" to increase pricing and I will be just as cynical against any AMD fans trying the same nonsense just because their side is doing the same.

Also at the end either,company margins/profits are of no concern to the end user. If AMD/Nvidia cannot offer 30% to 40% improvements each generation,after nearly 3 years at the same price point its pointless upgrading.

People need to stop being indoctrinated by pandemic pricing. If there was pandemic/mining excuse those RRPs for the RX6600XT/RX6700XT would have been lower. The RX6000 series dGPUs launched in late 2020 were far better priced than the later ones. The same goes with the later Ampere releases like the RTX3060.

The RX6600XT was made to be profitable at £300ish in 2020. The RX5700 non-xt was profitable at £250~£300 in 2019. An RX7600XT 16GB will be easily profitable at £300ish that when using "old tech". That is what TSMC 6NM and GDDR6 - it's lagging edge technology.

If AMD fans want to defend useless AMD pricing,then see Intel eventually overtake them.

The cause of AMD losses,was client CPU sales. It went down from $2.124 billion to $739 million in one year,and lost $172 million:

AMD Reports Q1 2023 Earnings: Slipping Back into the Red as Client Sales Crumble

www.anandtech.com

IT WAS THE ONLY SEGMENT WHICH LOST MONEY.

People are not buying CPUs anymore. Its also most likely many gamers have been put of by the idiotic prices of new dGPUs so have not bothered upgrading what they have. AMD also jacked up Zen3 prices during the pandemic - many on here defended the Ryzen 3600 replacement being sold at $100 more,ie,Ryzen 5 5600X.

So all the PCMR uberfans defending their favourite company jacking up pricing for the last few year,you have yourselves to blame if PC gaming just starts to decline longer term.

Affordable hardware is what made PCMR.....PCMR.

 

[humbug]

The margins went down by 1% and a 6% decline in gaming revenue is nothing compared to the collapse in Nvidia gaming revenue:

https://images.anandtech.com/doci/18845/AMD%20Q1-23%20Earnings%20Slides_22.png

Nvidia gaming revenue collapsed by 46% despite the Switch,etc.

Don't try to push AMD "having" to price a Navi 33 at £350+ when its clear despite a reduction in console prices and dGPU prices,they haven't seen any sort of collapse in gaming revenue let alone margins. Don't be like those Nvidia uberfans trying to spin Nvidia "has" to increase pricing and I will be just as cynical against any AMD fans trying the same nonsense just because their side has to do.

People need to stop being indoctrinated by pandemic pricing. If there was pandemic/mining excuse those RRPs for the RX6600XT/RX6700XT would have been lower. The RX6000 series dGPUs launched in late 2020 were far better priced than the later ones. The same goes with the later Ampere releases like the RTX3060.

The RX6600XT was made to be profitable at £300ish in 2020.

The cause of AMD losses,was client CPU sales. It went down from $2.124 billion to $739 million in one year,and lost $172 million:

AMD Reports Q1 2023 Earnings: Slipping Back into the Red as Client Sales Crumble

www.anandtech.com

They earned $314 Million profit from that, vs $358 Million Q1 2022.
Nvidia's revenue collapsed because the mining boom ended, AMD were nothing like as involved with that as Nvidia, whose profits exploded in 2021 from mining and came back down to normal levels in 2022.
All it shows is AMD weren't penises selling all their gaming cards directly to crypto miners for $2000 a pop.
---------------

I can't remember the exact figures, i would need to trawl through a #### load of #### without really knowing what to look for.

But as i remember it out of about $5 Billion gaming revenue in 2022 about $3.2 Billion of that was from the PS5 and XBox, those are IP only, AMD don't make them, they charge Sony and MS for the privileged of making them themselves and using them, its money printing. the rest, about $1.8 Billion, for the year, that came from Ryzen and Radeon, how much of that was Radeon?

Over a 3 to 5 year period it costs about a Billion $ to develop these things. do the maths....

 

[humbug]

Its why ATI went bust ^^^^

 

[Calin Banc]

Company makes revenue in the billions -> Yeey
Company makes revenue somewhat lower -> can go bust!


What's the limit, 1- 2 billion? Anything less and is not worth to get out of bed for

 

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

They earned $314 Million profit from that, vs $358 Million Q1 2022.
Nvidia's revenue collapsed because the mining boom ended, AMD were nothing like as involved with that as Nvidia, whose profits exploded in 2021 from mining and came back down to normal levels in 2022.
All it shows is AMD weren't penises selling all thier gaming cards directly to crypto miners for $2000 a pop.
---------------

I can't remember the exact figures, i would need to trawl through a #### load of #### without really knowing what to look for.

But as i remember it out of about $5 Billion gaming revenue in 2022 about $3.2 Billion of that was from the PS5 and XBox, those are IP only, AMD don't make them, they charge Sony and MS for the privileged of making them themselves and using them, its money printing. the rest, about $1.8 Billion, for the year, that came from Ryzen and Radeon, how much of that was Radeon?

Over a 3 to 5 year period it costs about a Billion $ to devlop these things. do the maths....

The guy from SemiWiki talked about the costs touted on the internet. He said they were all massive overestimates.

This is the same stuff touted by the Intel crew why we had quad cores for years. But muh costs otherwise Intel will go bankrupt. Does anyone care Intel has a bad quarter or two? Nope.

The same reasons touted by Nvidia uberfans why we still have 8GB of VRAM,and rubbish like Turing V1. But muh costs otherwise Nvidia will go bankrupt.

Now don't try to act like them and spin AMD "but muh costs". It makes people defending this no better than Intel and Nvidia uberfans.

Nobody cares what their costs are,but its quite clear they are not loosing money on what they are selling at current pricing. Their revenue and margins are pretty much flat despite,the consoles dropping in price,and dGPUs dropping in price. That is because the components cost less.

@gpuerrilla pointed out on some occasions,how companies in other areas have talked about component costs dropping.

You can't tell Nvidia uberfans that GDDR6 is now cheap(your own words),as it also affects AMD too. Most of the components are now cheaper than they are two years ago. Also TSMC 6NM is a lagging node,so it probably is cheaper to make Navi 33 in 2021 or Navi 10 in 2019.Navi 33 is a dGPU from the start made to be cheap. AMD is the second biggest TSMC customer after Apple. They will get some of the best pricing. Yet it is made on the third worst node available to them - they have TSMC 5NM and 4N capacity.

I have zero sympathy if that ROCm leak is true and AMD attempts a Navi 33 based RX7700XT 16GB at £400.Full Navi 33 16GB shouldn't be priced much above £300.

If AMD can sell an RX6700XT 12GB for under £350 profitably,which is barely £70 under the RRP after two years than a dGPU which is 60% of the size with 2/3 the memory chips can be sold profitably for around £300ish with 16GB VRAM.

In the consumers can't keep propping up companies like this. People are lucky to get even a 10% pay rise,so why should tech companies try to jack up pricing tiers by upto 2X(the RTX4070TI).

 

[kieran_read]

ther words system's like the Asus Ally and Steam Deck bolstered the revenue this quarter, but weak gaming graphics revenue (dGPU's) pulled the lot down.

That's a shame for them, we can all be thankful this is clearly not a pricing issue as they are all perfectly priced and have extraordinary value.

 

[humbug]

Company makes revenue in the billions -> Yeey
Company makes revenue somewhat lower -> can go bust!

AMD bundle all this together as "gaming revenue" to hide what's really going on, but people have broken it all down, the school of thought is over the last decade AMD have earned about $200 to $300 million revenue from Radeon per year, revenue, that does not include BOM costs, or development costs, AMD only sell about <1 Million GPU's a year, compared to about 8 million for Nvidia.

Nvidia can afford a Billion $ over 3 to 5 years on R&D for them, AMD's R&D is heavily subsidized by other sectors.

 

[humbug]

@CAT-THE-FIFTH Intel's CPU's are not profitable, you can see it in their financials.

 

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

That's a shame for them, we can all thankful this is clearly not a pricing issue as they are all perfectly priced and have extraordinary value.

I am not sure what planet where me suggesting an RX7600XT 16GB for £300 is some massive financial risk. Even if it was RX6750XT level performance,that is only 20% to 25% better performance,and finally a VRAM increase in the mainstream 7 years after the RX480.

But its doing so with a die 60% the size of the RX6700XT/RX6750XT which sells for as low as £330.It literally uses a 7NM class node,and has a smaller dGPU,and GDDR6 prices have dropped.

The RX5600XT and RX5700 were 75% and 61% faster than an RX580 at qHD:

https://tpucdn.com/review/sapphire-radeon-rx-5600-xt-pulse/images/relative-performance_2560-1440.png

If there was no pandemic the RX6600XT would have been a £300 dGPU like the RTX3060. It's depressing that all it took was Turing V1 and the Pandemic to indoctrinate PCMR into thinking selling 60 series dies for more and more money is OK,especially with useless performance improvements. That finally taking 7 years to double VRAM to 12GB/16GB is some achievement.

No wonder when PCMR is more worried about corporate hospitality. If these companies CBA to release good value products in a recession,then they deserve to lose more sales.

Yes,we can all buy consoles,but it would surprise me AMD could make a bigger margin on an RX7600 series product at £300,especially when an RX6600 is selling for £200.

@CAT-THE-FIFTH Intel's CPU's are not profitable, you can see it in their financials.

Because they spent years and years churning out the same stuff,with minimal performance bumps. Then actually screwing up their own fabs.

The consumer dGPU market will head the same way if Nvidia/AMD start doing this cartel like crap. Many people will just upgrade less often and avoid games which need too much hardware.

PCMR can then moan about console ports all they want. Things like Navi 33,AD107,AD106 etc are just junk. They are an insult to PCMR mainstream gamers unless sold relatively cheaply.

 

[kieran_read]

I am not sure what planet where me suggesting an RX7600XT 16GB for £300 is some massive financial risk. Even if it was RX6750XT level performance,that is only 20% to 25% better performance,and finally a VRAM increase 7 years after the RX480.

But its doing so with a die 60% the size of the RX6700XT/RX6750XT.It literally uses a 7NM class node,and has a smaller dGPU,and GDDR6 prices have dropped.

The RX5600XT and RX5700 were 75% and 61% faster than an RX580 at qHD:

https://tpucdn.com/review/sapphire-radeon-rx-5600-xt-pulse/images/relative-performance_2560-1440.png

If there was no pandemic the RX6600XT would have been a £300 dGPU like the RTX3060. It's depressing that all it took was Turing V1 and the Pandemic to indoctrinate PCMR into thinking selling 60 series dies for more and more money is OK,especially with useless performance improvements. That finally taking 7 years to double VRAM to 12GB/16GB is some achievement.

No wonder when PCMR is more worried about corporate hospitality.



Because they spent years and years churning out the same stuff,with minimal performance bumps.

That's a lot of words to me replying to a comment about reduced dGPUs sales.

If my saying it's clearly not the pricing because they are really good value (obviously sarcasm)

My be it's just me I thought my sarcasm was obvious.

 

[Calin Banc]

AMD bundle all this together as "gaming revenue" to hide what's really going on, but people have broken it all down, the school of thought is over the last decade AMD have earned about $200 to $300 million revenue from Radeon per year, revenue, that does not include BOM costs, or development costs, AMD only sell about <1 Million GPU's a year, compared to about 8 million for Nvidia.

Nvidia can afford a Billion $ over 3 to 5 years on R&D for them, AMD's R&D is heavily subsidized by other sectors.

R&D is spread over multiples segments, including consoles, not just gaming GPUs.
If revenue is low then it makes sense to try and increase your market share, but since they don't care...

Not the least, PS5 was profitabile to sell as hardware during the pandemic. So that's that about costs excuse.

 

[g67575]

Just make a cheap Navi32 GPU with 16GB.

No need for these arguments.

Navi33 is for 1080p gaming, I wouldnt expect much at this level.

 

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

That's a lot of words to me replying to a comment about reduced dGPUs sales.

If my saying it's clearly not the pricing because they are really good value (obviously sarcasm)

My be it's just me I thought my sarcasm was obvious.

It was but I am also perplexed as what I am suggesting is hardly going to push the boat in terms of actual costs,let alone price/performance.

If it has literally taken 5 years after the Turing V1 pricing debacle and two years of Pandemic pricing to reach a level,where a miniscule price/performance improvement is "too much" then most of us mainstream gamers should give up.

Just make a cheap Navi32 GPU with 16GB.

No need for these arguments.

Exactly. £300 seems more than doable for a Navi 33 dGPU with more than 8GB of VRAM. Not sure why it is some controversial price.

I was thinking £250 would be better,but I was trying to be "fair".

 

[g67575]

I'm not sure if a N32 card with 16GB would be £300 or £400.

There's definitely room for a RX 7700 and XT variant though...

 

[g67575]

I think the thing to remember about 1080p cards, is that 8GB N33 GPUs can already comfortably deliver 60 FPS minimums, as these cards can run Cyberpunk 2077 (impressive in itself for a low end mobile GPU)...

So, there's little reason to increase the spec, for what is supposed to be the lowest tier GPU die.

The Navi33 die was (predominantly) intended for mobile devices, as discussed here, back in August 2022:

AMD's RDNA 3 Graphics

3rd time's the charm?

www.angstronomics.com

It's 6nm which makes it cheaper and easier to mass produce.

 

[Calin Banc]

I think the thing to remember about 1080p cards, is that 8GB N33 GPUs can already comfortably deliver 60 FPS minimums, as these cards can run Cyberpunk 2077...

So, there's little reason to increase the spec, for what is supposed to be the lowest tier GPU die.

The Navi33 die was intended for mobile devices, as discussed here, back in August 2022:

AMD's RDNA 3 Graphics

3rd time's the charm?

www.angstronomics.com

It's 6nm which makes it cheaper and easier to mass produce.

Hmm

Look at 1%, you need at least a 6700xt for 1080p quality @ 60fps. And that's without RT.

 

[g67575]

I think your argument falls apart when you look at the RTX 3060 TI, 3070 + TI variant minimums, assuming you are drawing attention to the 8GB VRAM of some cards.

Even the RTX 2080 8GB gets 59 FPS 1% lows.

RT performance on N33 is going to be trash regardless (even though it's improved compared to N22 GPUs).

 

[humbug]

R&D is spread over multiples segments, including consoles, not just gaming GPUs.
If revenue is low then it makes sense to try and increase your market share, but since they don't care...

Not the least, PS5 was profitabile to sell as hardware during the pandemic. So that's that about costs excuse.

That is true yes.

Its not that i think they don't care at all, i think they have a list of priorities and dGPU marketshare is right at the bottom, right now its stuffing their IP in to more phones and cars, getting other people to see the benefits of riding the Steam Deck hype train, Asus are on board.

And bludgeoning Nvidia and Intel combined out of low and lower mid tier gaming laptop's with thier new RDNA3 APU's

 

[g67575]

Since the RX 6600 XT and RX 6650 XT (both 8GB) aren't far off being able to do 60 FPS smoothly in Hogwarts, it's a fair bet that the top Navi33 card will handle it.

It looks like the performance won't be far off the RTX 3060 TI.