Italian Grand Prix 2015, Monza - Race 12/19

dannyjo22 said:
So for all those years Hamilton had an adequate Mclaren he wasn't a top driver and Vettel ended up at Red Bull because he was the best? Come off it there is a huge amount of luck involved. Hamiltons options out of Mclaren were pretty limited at the time, Rosberg wasn't in huge demand either.

Mercedes was worth the gamble as Mclaren were going nowhere and Lewis had few other options.
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Exactly. If Alonso had joined Red Bull in 2010 he would have 6 world titles. If he then joined Merc in 2014 he'd have 7 world titles and be on course for 8 this year.

Top level Drivers and their success ultimately comes down 95 percent to luck.
 
MissChief said:
If Jenson had managed to stay at Brawn/Mercedes he could be a two or three time champion too. Luck, or being in the right car at the right time.
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No, he couldn't. Brawn had the one great car inherited from Honda and didn't have the money to develop that over a full season. If Button had stayed with Mercedes he would have done exactly the same job that Schumacher did, and there's no way he would have got better results. Schumacher had the most complete understanding of how F1 cars work that any driver has ever had.
 
PinkFloyd said:
How can you say that? The Merc is the best car on the grid as Lewis and Nico are proving,
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Only in regards to the current engine format that started last year - between 2010 and 2013 clearly it wasn't the best car?

PinkFloyd said:
how can you categorically say that Jenson wouldn't have won a title in the same car?
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I have no doubt that he would in the current or last years car, but in 2010-2012 the car clearly wasn't that good in relation to the competition - hence Mercs 4 and 5th place constructors finishes
 
JeditOjanen said:
No, he couldn't. Brawn had the one great car inherited from Honda and didn't have the money to develop that over a full season. If Button had stayed with Mercedes he would have done exactly the same job that Schumacher did, and there's no way he would have got better results. Schumacher had the most complete understanding of how F1 cars work that any driver has ever had.
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Wow... genuinely. I mean, I must be the only one that thought - with all due respect to Schumi, that maybe his lacklustre comeback with Merc was attributed to his declining mental agility rather than his knowledge of F1 and cars.

Since 2006 etc. I'm sure the cars evolved into entirely different beasts too...
 
MrKnifey said:
So never? It never has been a pick and mix race winners sport.. Very rare we get a season where its a load of teams at the top!
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The race winner is generally unpredictable...not predictable, as you are suggesting.
What you find is 2-3 drivers are usually able to win races.
What we are seeing now is Hamilton. Hamilton. Hamilton.
Before Monza race started, I predicted Hamilton for the win and will continue to do so for the foreseeable future.

The only other time in recent years where F1 was predictable was was when Vettel won 9 in a row. But apart from that, the race winner has not been easily predictable. Even last year, Rosberg was snapping at Hamilton's heels.

How about when we had 7 races and 7 different race winners? That was not long ago.

Even during Vettel's domination, Alonso and Webber were competing with Vettel and keeping the title fight alive.

Let me put it another way. If Hamilton decided to skip all practise sessions and only participated in the Race and Qualifying, using Rosberg's setups, I'd bet Hamilton to win.

Still not convinced?
Last race:
Fastest Lap: Hamilton
Pole: Hamilton
Race Winner: Hamilton
He finished 25s ahead, without pushing to the absolute limit.

And who won the previous race?
Hamilton perhaps?

What I want to see is at least 1 other team competing with Merc. Alternatively, give Hamilton Alonso or Vettel to drive against. Either one of these scenarios will make F1 more exciting and less predictable. The third scenario is we have a complete overhaul of regulations (like in 2009) - that'll also put pressure on Merc.
 
smr said:
Since 2006 etc. I'm sure the cars evolved into entirely different beasts too...
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With regards to MSc:
In his time, no doubt, he was the best. IMO he is the greatest, most complete F1 driver I have ever seen. But, do not use his 2nd career as any indication of his skill level. He was 40+ in his 2nd career and was getting beat by Rosberg...ROSBERG!

In his prime MSc probably would've doubled or tripled Rosberg's yearly points total. This is what he used to do, to his team-mates, in his first career. He used to lap them, too.

The truth is that no sportsman is able to maintain dominance for an unlimited period of time. Everybody has their time. Today Hamilton, Vettel and Alonso (HVA) are great, but in 15 years time, these guys would take a beating at the hands of younger drivers, who may not be as good as HVA are, today. As you age, your mind and body change and so does your ability to perform at sport.
 
sunama said:
In 2012 McLaren built arguably the best car.
They just didn't have the drivers to get the job done.

Vettel and (as normal, Alonso), were a class above everybody else.
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From what I remember there were a heck of a lot of cockups at McLaren in the pitlane that season, not to mention silly strategy errors and poor reliability.

Red Bull however were brilliant at their pit stops, reliability was excellent and their race strategys were very good.

Pole Positions:

Hamilton : 7
Vettel: 6
Button: 1

Fastest laps - Vettel : 6
Hamilton : 1
Button : 2

Race Wins:

Vettel: 5
Hamilton : 4
Button: 3
 
sunama said:
The race winner is generally unpredictable...not predictable, as you are suggesting.
What you find is 2-3 drivers are usually able to win races.
What we are seeing now is Hamilton. Hamilton. Hamilton.
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I don't mind domination, what I don't like is domination where it doesn't matter who is driving the car they would be world champion. For instance without Hamilton Rosberg would have won the title last year and this year. Massa would have won the title in that car. Yet even when Vettel was going against Hamilton and Alonso only in the first year did I ever think Webber would have been good enough to have beaten them if Vettel wasn't there.

Again I think Alonso's 2nds were a much better achievement than Hamiltons titles at Merc currently. Any of the top 10 or further back would have taken the title in that car but I cannot think of another driver I have ever seen in recent years that could have taken Vettel in that Red Bull so close.

Would Hamilton, no I don't think so. Would Alonso have had any issues against Rosberg. No he would have buried him inside 3 races and be as broken as he is now against Hamilton. Hamilton is driving the most dominant car ever built and tbh he deserves it for the crap he put up with at mclaren but it's not fun to watch and if it was Vettel at Red Bull people are falling over themselves to tell you it was the car.

It's a terrible period of racing for F1 but then what do they expect when you can't test.
 
dannyjo22 said:
...but then what do they expect when you can't test.
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The root cause of a lot of F1s issues right here.

Unlimited testing is bad, I get that. It just means the team with the biggest budget wins. But the solution is not an almost total ban on testing. It's even worse next year, isn't the current proposal 2 pre season tests and nothing in season?
 
Mclaren should just run the new Honda Jazz in the next race. A better chance of finishing, two old men driving the cars and would suit the Mclaren image better. They do it in sunset orange, right up their street.
 
Yup, testing is an issue. Whoever gets it right off the bat never has anyone catch up. Happened with red bull, has happened with Mercedes (only worse this time).
 
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