Italian Grand Prix 2015, Monza - Race 12/19

I've said it before, testing should be based on finishing position last season up to the Summer break. That way Ferrari can't just pound round Fiorano endlessly like they used to do.

If your team has won a dry race or scored more than 3 dry podiums last season, limited testing, say 500Km with your development drivers only. No testing for Race drivers. Mercedes, Red Bull and Ferrari are forced to use development drivers but can still do limited testing.

If your team has scored points and less than three dry podiums, 1000Km with development drivers or 500Km with race drivers. Good chance to use a mix of race and development drivers

No points or less than three points finishes Unlimited testing with development drivers or 1,000Km with race drivers. This would let McLaren Honda and Manor/Sauber test as much as they wanted to and even up the field.
 
I've said it before, testing should be based on finishing position last season up to the Summer break. That way Ferrari can't just pound round Fiorano endlessly like they used to do.

If your team has won a dry race or scored more than 3 dry podiums last season, limited testing, say 500Km with your development drivers only. No testing for Race drivers. Mercedes, Red Bull and Ferrari are forced to use development drivers but can still do limited testing.

If your team has scored points and less than three dry podiums, 1000Km with development drivers or 500Km with race drivers. Good chance to use a mix of race and development drivers

No points or less than three points finishes Unlimited testing with development drivers or 1,000Km with race drivers. This would let McLaren Honda and Manor/Sauber test as much as they wanted to and even up the field.
In many ways I agree but, allowing the teams that are not successful to have unlimited testing will not work. They are generally lower down the grid due to financial restraints, allowing them testing that they can ill afford might not be the answer. Maybe a bigger share of the money generated and then restricted testing to those teams only would benefit?

Maybe the answer is allowing lower placed teams more wind tunnel time as that is generally far cheaper and more productive. They already have the wind tunnels , so let them have more wind tunnel time.
 
Engine development for manufacturers who are lagging behind should be unlimited until they're within whatever percentage of the best. That obviously comes with complications (given it's not just power, there's fuel efficiency, size, heat, etc, which had to be considered), but it could work with a well designed system of rules around it.

It couldn't work at all, not even in the slightest. Engine development takes absolutely months, it's not a case of hey lets try this new shape on a nose, it's hugely more involved for even a small piece and manufacturing turn around alone on engine pieces is far far longer then requires massive testing and iterative design to get to something you want out on track.

By your process an engine that was way behind could go off, come back a year later with an engine 10% faster than everyone else and only at that point would other people be allowed to develop and it would take them a year to catch up.

With the rules as they are there is plenty of scope to catch up, Honda just went with entirely the wrong engine design to start with. Ferrari did for 2014 and fixed it for a year later, another year of improvements and they'll close in on Mercedes again.

People also need to get a freaking grip, 95% of engine development is done in the lab and on complex dynos. There is very little to be gained by more track testing, an engine won't realistically be ready to go out on track to be tested in the car till it's gone through a bunch of iterations and thousands of miles of testing in a lab, by which point track testing proves the piece, not improves or changes the design. Testing of the engine in the lab is unlimited already.

Currently the tokens allowed Ferrari to entirely change the engine between the two seasons and fix a monumental layout mistake. Reliability changes allow effectively unlimited changes for reliability reasons, testing on dynos is more than good enough to develop an engine and is entirely unlimited. Track testing is for proving your parts work together and getting the package working as a whole. The preseason testing we've had has proven it's enough. The worst car in terms of package of decent pieces was RBR last year and they went from awful testing to fixing the packaging(mostly electronics and cooling for the engine) by the first race because they learned enough from testing. It was clearly more than enough for Merc/Ferrari.

The only team it wasn't 'enough' for was Mclaren, because between Mclaren and Honda they made a **** car with a **** engine that was going to take a year to fix regardless. Unlimited testing this year would have made absolutely no difference to Mclaren at all just cost them a load in extra engines that died.

Look at Renault, they have reliability issues and are free to improve them, and tokens to improve performance and it's still not going to have updates ready till Sochi(at the earliest), engine development takes a long time and if you start the season with a terrible one that is what you're stuck with. Complex engines take a long time to develop, currently have unlimited testing but are limited to the people designing the engine. The rules allow a huge amount of changes and more than enough testing for the engine side of the car.
 
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We know Hondas is roughly 68hp though.. ?

I was thinking more along the line of Acme's old polo to be honest :D


Allowing smaller teams unlimited or less restricted Wind Tunnel / CFD testing sounds like a reasonable idea.

Allowing unlimited engine development won't make a lot of difference for the reasons drunkenmaster has mentioned. Isn't it also the case that unlimited development is being done and engines dyno tested etc, just a case of which working developments then get homologated and tokens spent on them.
 
Testing should not be scaled depending on finishing position, or any other random stuff. It should just be cheaper.

The issue with testing, and why the banned it, is because it was bloody expensive to have basically a whole second team running testing in a totally differennt part of the world to the race team. This lead to just those with massive budgets affording it, and those without simply not.

So, make it cheaper rather than ban it. Its simple:

For every race weekend where there is a 3 week or more gap to the next race, or race weekends where the next race is 2 weeks away by on the same continent (i.e. Europe), have a 2 or 3 day test after the race, starting Monday to Wednesday. It uses the same team, same chassis, same track setup and everything. The cost would be far lower than separate tests.
Also, mandate no race drivers can test. This way you force numerous days a year where young drivers get in the car, and test driver roles become something to actually want to be again. It also then gives Friday morning sessions back to the race drivers so they don't have to sacrifice them to allow the juniors in. A lot of races sell Friday only tickets now, but the fans aren't happy when they rock up to see their favourate drivers only to be left watching Teenager McBuyASeat trundle around for 3 laps before binning it in the gravel.

Its so simple, and would be so easy to do. But yet again, the FIA are just bloody stupid.
 
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Not sure the teams would go for it as A Class parts, chassis, suspension etc undergo a lot of inspection in between races so time maybe an issue there. Also the race team guys are away from their families a lot already, dont think the other halves would be too impressed.
 
Those are small issues really, flying a few extra guys in to cover those who need/want to be home isn't too bad, They could just ship an extra container/truck with a test mule chassis. Would still be much cheaper than it was before. Just stay at some of the euro tracks after the race and use those.
 
Not sure the teams would go for it as A Class parts, chassis, suspension etc undergo a lot of inspection in between races so time maybe an issue there. Also the race team guys are away from their families a lot already, dont think the other halves would be too impressed.

I don't really buy that at all. Were always hearing about how nether the cars or teams have been back to the factory for 2 or 3 races in a row, so put the tests there. Between the flyaway races for example.

Te staff issue can be covered by swapping people about. The extra cost before was having both a race team and a test crew working at the same time in different places. You could operate both under this process, but they would never be in action at the same time.

Those are small issues really, flying a few extra guys in to cover those who need/want to be home isn't too bad, They could just ship an extra container/truck with a test mule chassis. Would still be much cheaper than it was before. Just stay at some of the euro tracks after the race and use those.

Indeed. The value of lots of extra testing is worth the minor inconvenience of going testing. Were talking about something (lack of testing) that is literally killing teams, so I think thats more important than a few extra days away from the wife.
 
I didn't say it'd be a super quick fix :confused:.



No, that's not what would happen with 'my process'.

Nice wall of text, though.

Yes it is, my whole point is the way engine development works is you are talking about 6-12 months to find a big update, produce, test, iterate, produce test and validate it. If you give only one engine/group of teams the ability to make big changes it will happen as I said. The engine behind gets more development and a year later is ahead, but until it's ahead the other team wouldn't be allowed freer development which means they have to wait until the other team gets ahead, then take a year to catch up. It almost guarantees there will never be a relatively level playing field.
 
Those are small issues really, flying a few extra guys in to cover those who need/want to be home isn't too bad, They could just ship an extra container/truck with a test mule chassis. Would still be much cheaper than it was before. Just stay at some of the euro tracks after the race and use those.

Isn't too bad? Do you have any idea of the salaries these guys are on, teams are structured like any other business, you cant just have employees who can fly in to cover other guys, it don't work like that.
 
It worked like that before? But in a completely different place. You telling me taking a few guys from the factory and flying them to say Spain to cover those who need to be home for 3 days is something beyond the scope of F1?

If the guys who need to be there can't be covered (too special) then they stay at the track and take the time off else where. If they are unwilling I'm sure someone behind them will be.

You obviously love F1.. Look at your name, The lack of in season testing is killing it! These issues were over come before (on a larger scale) they could be worked around again but in a better structured manner.
 
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You obviously love F1.. Look at your name

Sparky works for RBR.

But your wider point is bang on. The lack of testing has arguably killed Caterham and HRT, and is in the process of killing McLaren/Honda, and seriously hampering Renault. Paying the extra few grand to cover going testing as cheaply as possible is definitely worth the cost in the long run.
 
Caterham and HRT couldn't afford to go to more testing sessions and even if they went to more testing sessions they couldn't afford to actually make new parts for testing. It likely had little to no bearing at all on them.

It has literally nothing to do with Mclaren/Honda. Again, their engine gets UNLIMITED TESTING, I really don't know what is so hard to comprehend about that little fact.

It's also not an extra few grand, I'm not sure if you're being naive or trying to make excuses for teams. You're talking about 100k's in parts, you're talking about an entirely spare car. The reason there is big gaps between some races is the logistics of shipping cars around the globe and tires, and spare parts and pitwall kit and everything else is monumental. It's not like they pack up in 20 mins ship out and can setup at the next track a day later.

It also you know, which you may have forgotten, costs money to use the actual track. To some degree you are renting the track and it has a high cost. YOu're talking about having several hundred track personnel on site, marshalls on each corner and down straights for safety reasons. YOu still need to pay for helicopter to be on standby duty, ambulances, security.

It's not thousands, it's 100k's and you're ignoring the most obvious point. Mclaren have brought multiple upgrades to tracks without involving test days. As have all the big teams, as have some of the smaller teams.

EVery single session, free practice, qualifying and the race is a 'test' session. The teams gather a huge amount of data constantly from every lap run. No team has ever worried about bringing parts to tracks to test. the smallest teams can't afford to make loads of extra parts, they often choose not to take part in testing to save money.

Mclaren isn't suffering from a lack of testing, it's suffering from the lack of a good engine. This will be rectified when Honda create a better engine in their labs, test it and then bring it to the track. From their they can fine tune mgu-k deployment, engine maps, etc, testing helps there but that is the very final hurdle. The actual engine HOnda have is crap... testing it for a billion miles doesn't change those parts.

In the most limited way testing could have helped some of the smallest teams make money by selling test sessions to drivers as FI did this year. However, they could just as easily sell more FP1/2 sessions. If your car is right at the back of the grid and sucking anyway honestly FP1/2 isn't going to propel a Caterham driver into the points, it's meaningless to them. Free practice gets infinitely more coverage, for one thing live tv and would be worth literally 10-20 times as much as a testing day.
 
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It worked like that before? But in a completely different place. You telling me taking a few guys from the factory and flying them to say Spain to cover those who need to be home for 3 days is something beyond the scope of F1?

If the guys who need to be there can't be covered (too special) then they stay at the track and take the time off else where. If they are unwilling I'm sure someone behind them will be.

You obviously love F1.. Look at your name, The lack of in season testing is killing it! These issues were over come before (on a larger scale) they could be worked around again but in a better structured manner.

I am not disagreeing with you on this, just dont think extra testing for teams who struggle to pay the wages now , will work. Not until the money gets more evenly split [ which is what i said in the 1st place] will it benefit them.
 
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