Poll: Italian Grand Prix 2018, Monza - Race 14/21

[this_is_gav]

I just did a couple of searches of old posts as I remember questioning Vettel's racing ability years ago, check these out:

https://forums.overclockers.co.uk/posts/19658007


How about this:

https://forums.overclockers.co.uk/posts/16910974


Do the bold bits sound familiar?

I have to say though it's quite concerning for his fans that he's not learned much in 7 years.

I'm not going to defend Vettel as I agree, he's never been great a wheel-to-wheel racing, but this is also from 2010.

Edit: that didn't take long to get flagged! Here's a link instead.

[link removed as no longer needed]

Not exactly directly comparable, but similar. It's an easy mistake to make.

 

[CaptainRAVE]

https://www.planetf1.com/news/pit-chat-theresa-may-is-a-massive-formula-1-fan/

Some great stuff on this page. A few bad words on there though

 

[The_Abyss]

I've done some research and I'm pretty sure that Vettel planned this move out long before the race.

In this documentary, 9 seconds in, you can see him clearly planning to move past Hamilton on the inside using his hands as a visual guide.

The preceding voice over is uncomfortable...!

 

[GravyMonster]

God damn that's a terrible advert. It's every possible motoring cliche in one.

 

[The_Abyss]

Trading off past glories - that does sound familiar...

 

[mmj_uk]

I'm not going to defend Vettel as I agree, he's never been great a wheel-to-wheel racing, but this is also from 2010.

Edit: that didn't take long to get flagged! Here's a link instead.

https://thisisgav.co.uk/random/monza_hamilton-vs-massa.mkv
(2.9mb, 21 seconds)

Not exactly directly comparable, but similar. It's an easy mistake to make.

There's no doubt Hamilton went through a phase of making silly mistakes but in the last few years it's rare that he makes any and I think the key difference is there is no intent with Hamilton, whereas Vettel after all of these years still tries to use his car to bully drivers off their line and that's why he's in so many car-on-car collisions. When it comes to racing Hamilton I think he'd rather be involved in a collision and chance the outcome than allow Hamilton to overtake him cleanly and have to race him.

 

[Participant]

When it comes to racing Hamilton I think he'd rather be involved in a collision and chance the outcome than allow Hamilton to overtake him cleanly and have to race him.

That I completely agree with.

I also agree with the authority's stance of erring towards laissez-faire in respect of racing incidents vs. penalties.

 

[The_Abyss]

I do too, but only up to a point. Let's use the weekend example and reverse the outcome, i.e. Hamilton is spun around and rejoins in last place with damage.

Leading up to that point, Vettel knew Hamilton was close. Hamilton had a half hearted sniff at T1, they nudged and Vettel's exit from the chicane was poor as a result. Hamilton's all that Vettel can see in his mirrors all around Curva Grande and Vettel knows that Hamilton's closer to him than he is to Kimi.

Vettel knows that Hamilton's right with him, as he thinks to jink to the outside of Kimi on the straight and then sees Hamilton, forcing him to abort the move. He then sees Hamilton again, as when they brake into T3 Hamilton's beside him and he consciously leaves him sufficient space. As they turn into the corner, Vettel now has the decision to make. He can try and hold position and take the corner aggressively to try and rejoin Kimi's line (requiring more input from the steering) or he can back out.

He does the former, messes up the apex, understeers and smears into the side of Hamilton who is ahead by this point.

If Hamilton ends up spun off and last at that point, I think the stewards would penalise Vettel. This isn't the chaos of the first corner of the first lap - they're already spacing out and there are only three cars involved, all in regular parts of the track attempting regular manoeuvres. Vettel just executed his poorly / made a mistake. Hamilton's in last place with damage due to no fault of his own. Yes, it was a high risk manoeuvre but he was ahead. If Vettel was ahead and had taken the corner properly without understeer, Hamilton would have had the opportunity to back out himself or drive off the track.

Vettel feels like he's turning into a driver who can beat 18 of the other 19 drivers on the circuit. His moves back through the field were relatively clean, although mostly DRS assisted. However, unfortunately, the 19th driver he doesn't seem to be able to compete with is Hamilton - the one he needs to beat the most.

We're getting a good championship competition, even if it that doesn't always mean head to head competition on the track.

 

[Jimbeam3678]

Very well put @The_Abyss. Agree with everything you've put. Hamilton historically has made silly/childish mistakes but for the last 3-4 years he seems to rarely if ever make any mistakes.

 

[Mr Jack]

There's no doubt Hamilton went through a phase of making silly mistakes but in the last few years it's rare that he makes any and I think the key difference is there is no intent with Hamilton, whereas Vettel after all of these years still tries to use his car to bully drivers off their line and that's why he's in so many car-on-car collisions.

There's no doubt that Hamilton has made silly mistakes and lost his head in the past, but I don't recall him doing it at a time, or in a way, that lost him a championship. Not after his first year, in any case. As things stand, it really looks like Vettel's foolishness is going to cost him the season. If Hamilton wins this season he will have twice won in a car that isn't the best on the grid, and Vettel will have lost in the best car on the grid.

 

[413x]

If Hamilton wins this year it will probably be his biggest achievement (from outside perspective)
I believe (not sure) that he's always had best car and beaten his team mate only.
This year he has beaten his team mate and another team.

If ferrari and vettel don't win this year its going to feel waaaay worse than previous years.
They have had the best package for approx half season. If not More.

Hamilton is flattered by a average team mate. But he is still deserving of his position.

He is better than vettel. And I'm not a Hamilton supporter.

 

[Shimmy]

Case to make that Hamilton's 1st WDC was in the 2nd best car, Ferrari won the Contructor's - more wins and podiums.

 

[GravyMonster]

I believe (not sure) that he's always had best car and beaten his team mate only.

He didn't have the best car from 2009-2013, and scored less points than Button in 2011.

This year he has beaten ... another team.

Bit early to be counting those chickens. He's only a DNF away from being right back in the thick of it, and with the engine and gearbox penalties which are undoubtedly coming towards the end of this season it's by no means over.

 

[this_is_gav]

Case to make that Hamilton's 1st WDC was in the 2nd best car, Ferrari won the Contructor's - more wins and podiums.

It wasn't that simple. Heikki Kovailanen was hardly a strong teammate. He amassed a grand total of four podiums in 112 races, and while Hamilton had 15 podiums in 35 races in 2008 and 2009, Heikki had three.

McLaren and Ferrari were very similarly paced in 2007 and 2008, see-sawing back and forward throughout both seasons.

 

[413x]

He didn't have the best car from 2009-2013, and scored less points than Button in 2011.

Bit early to be counting those chickens. He's only a DNF away from being right back in the thick of it, and with the engine and gearbox penalties which are undoubtedly coming towards the end of this season it's by no means over.

Couldn't remember before the last few years.
And yes, thats assuming it Ends Like it is now

 

[Shimmy]

It wasn't that simple. Heikki Kovailanen was hardly a strong teammate. He amassed a grand total of four podiums in 112 races, and while Hamilton had 15 podiums in 35 races in 2008 and 2009, Heikki had three.

McLaren and Ferrari were very similarly paced in 2007 and 2008, see-sawing back and forward throughout both seasons.

I didn't say it was clear cut, and I agree Heikki was average.

Massa finished 1 point behind Lewis in 2008, mostly because he had 2 more retirements. Massa actually had most race wins that year.

I would agree the Ferrari and McLaren were similar in 2008, but I would say Ferrari had the edge ever so slightly. Not too dissimilar to this year.

 

[this_is_gav]

I didn't say it was clear cut, and I agree Heikki was average.

Massa finished 1 point behind Lewis in 2008, mostly because he had 2 more retirements. Massa actually had most race wins that year.

I would agree the Ferrari and McLaren were similar in 2008, but I would say Ferrari had the edge ever so slightly. Not too dissimilar to this year.

It's easy to argue the other way too, that the McLaren (Hamilton's anyway) was the better car. All of the races where Hamilton failed to pick up points were down to driver error (Bahrain he ran into Alonso, Canada he ran into Raikkonen in the pits, France he cut the track and was given a penalty and Japan he was penalised for running Raikkonen off the track and was then spun by Massa).

Ferrari had four engine failures, both Ferraris were terrible at Silverstone and obviously Singapore was that infamous pit stop. On the basis that the Ferrari was less reliable and none of Hamilton's failures to score were down to reliability issues it would be easy to argue the McLaren was the better car. Not always faster, but better.

 

[Shimmy]

Yup true true, I remember Hamilton had some costly errors but I forgot about Ferrari's engine failures.

 

[Mr Jack]

Another good Chain Bear video, this time on the Haas infringement:

 

[Mr Jack]

I didn't say it was clear cut, and I agree Heikki was average.

Massa finished 1 point behind Lewis in 2008, mostly because he had 2 more retirements. Massa actually had most race wins that year.

Heikki was average, sure, but Massa is pretty ordinary too. For him to get within a point of Lewis needed a serious car advantage. And Kimi was well off his game that year too. He seemed to lose interest after winning the championship.