I've given up on LPG - the future is Electric.

It's all fairly superficial as far as I understand it, a petrol car uses fossil fuels to power it, an electric car gets its power from power stations burning fossil fuels to power them.

Maybe in 200 years time when we have solar/wind everything the argument will make more sense, for now the only thing that interests me is ludicrous mode, which is awesome.
 
Joe T said:
I really dont understand why people compare a £80k Tesla with an £80k premium car. The total cost of ownership is simply not comparable, and that's the important number after all.
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Maybe 'cos they are designing one that's cheaper yet more premium inside?

Total cost of ownership isn't really the most important, customers have expectation. Tesla have a lots of tech savvi guinea pigs who are happy to have the latest thing rather than the full premium experience. Also have you seen the servicing costs for a Tesla? Residuals are good ill give it that, mainly as Elon guaranteed 50% buy back for the first phase.
 
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adam cool dude said:
Say you have taken your Tesla up to the Scottish highlands. Only to be rang by your mother that your father is desperately ill and will only last a few hours. How are you going to get back down south so quickly? Apart from ditching your electric car and renting/borrowing a petrol?
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Or maybe while chilling out on the beach in Lands End I get a call from a Nigerian Prince who has promised me 25% of his billionaire fathers estate if I'll just watch him sign the paperwork in John O Groats and pay him just £15,000 to cover the legal fees but the deal has to be done by midnight...

Seriously, the fact that people pick these scenarios or focus on 'that holiday they took for a week last year' simply highlight that for many people an EV would actually do the job for the bulk of their driving duties. Isn't the average mileage dropping now, around 8000 isn't it? So taking a wild assumption that they only drive for 250 days out of the year that is 32 miles. Well within the range of an EV... in a blizzard with the heater on full :p

Would I buy one if I had to rely on a public charger for even an occasional commute, no. Would I personally have one? No, it doesn't suit me as I do work at customers sites all over the UK. Would it suit the majority of people... probably.
 
Jonnycoupe said:
Total cost of ownership isn't really the most important
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You're joking right? Total cost of ownership is vital (just ask Fox- it's his mantra :D). Even Tesla's marketing materials show monthly costs after taking into account the fuel saving. It means people shopping for a lower up-front price car could potentially afford one, but would not be able to buy an ICE powered car for the same up-front price. The expectations will therefore be different.
 
The point I'm trying to make is that we are moving to a phase where the running costs of motoring will drop but the upfront costs will increase. The buying public will need to come to terms with that. (As will the government who will lose a lot of tax revenue- which may well also get added to the upfront cost).
 
The green credentials of an electric car sort of go out the window when you consider the environmental impact of mining all the heavy metals for the batteries, and the fact the batteries degrade and have to disposed of/recycled.
 
norm said:
The green credentials of an electric car sort of go out the window when you consider the environmental impact of mining all the heavy metals for the batteries, and the fact the batteries degrade and have to disposed of/recycled.
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Or re-used for another 20+ years as a domestic battery.
 
norm said:
The green credentials of an electric car sort of go out the window when you consider the environmental impact of mining all the heavy metals for the batteries, and the fact the batteries degrade and have to disposed of/recycled.
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Why do EV threads turn everyone into lifecycle engineers from the 1980s with Ni-cd batteries?

The fact you have to dispose of chemicals (recycle) is because they are still in solid/liquid form in a sealed case after a life of 10years. Yet we think nothing of vapourising kilos of liquid fuel each week?
 
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If I had to commute locally and had charge points at either end, I'd be on the EV in a flash.

However, since we live in the country and EV charging points are rarer than rocking horse excrement it'll never be viable.

If I lived in London or a city, I'd jump at the EV switch. Makes so much sense. I think they should ban non EVs from London and cities.

EVs are the future, and as much of a petrol head as I would like to be, it is something we should be embracing. That doesn't mean you can't own your gas guzzling V8s (who doesn't want one of those?!) but for a commuter car I think they make total sense.

Especially when the infrastructure is completely set up for them - then it will be even better.
 
Jonnycoupe said:
Why do EV threads turn everyone into lifecycle engineers from the 1980s with Ni-cd batteries?

The fact you have to dispose of chemicals (recycle) is because they are still in solid/liquid form in a sealed case after a life of 10years. Yet we think nothing of vapourising kilos of liquid fuel each week?
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Well. It's kinda true. They sometimes seem like a bit of a false economy when you look at the bigger picture on the "green" side of things. The materials and energy still has to come from somewhere. Theres a few very toxic and volatile substances in batteries. If your in a crash and they get ruptured, you wouldn't want to be near them (especially if it's raining!).
 
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It doesn't really though does it, same argument exists for most energy sources. Save the oil for plastic and stuff, we can't make TV's using sunlight.
 
Jonnycoupe said:
Why do EV threads turn everyone into lifecycle engineers from the 1980s with Ni-cd batteries?
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Because the batteries in EVs are massive? And are generally rubbish, as this thread demonstrates, a car 3 years old can't even get close to meet the quoted run-times without wildly fluctuating. Another 2 years of use and the car will be resigned to short commutes or the battery will need replacing at huge cost, or more likely the vehicle gets scrapped.
 
Sorry, you're mistaken if you thought I was intending to start a conversation.

Batteries actually can get used for grid storage.
 
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norm said:
Because the batteries in EVs are massive? And are generally rubbish, as this thread demonstrates, a car 3 years old can't even get close to meet the quoted run-times without wildly fluctuating. Another 2 years of use and the car will be resigned to short commutes or the battery will need replacing at huge cost, or more likely the vehicle gets scrapped.
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Because those same batteries that doesn't meet the quoted capacities in an EV still give near the quoted capacity when used in an application that draws less current. I could even demonstrate this reasonably scientifically with some 18650 cells if I could be bothered wasting some time
 
norm said:
Because the batteries in EVs are massive? And are generally rubbish, as this thread demonstrates, a car 3 years old can't even get close to meet the quoted run-times without wildly fluctuating. Another 2 years of use and the car will be resigned to short commutes or the battery will need replacing at huge cost, or more likely the vehicle gets scrapped.
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Please bear in mind this is a Taxi and spends its entire life attached to a DC rapid charger.

http://insideevs.com/nissan-leaf-taxi-hits-100000-miles-still-battery-bars/



http://www.fleetnews.co.uk/news/2014/5/8/nissan-leaf-taxi-hits-150-000-miles/52361/

Lets chuck in a hybrid for fun, 600k Prius on the original battery and further down the article a 7 year old Prius with 200k got tested and still got the same MPG as new.

http://www.hybridcars.com/toyota-prius-taxi-running-strong-with-600000-miles-and-original-battery/


So no batteries are not rubbish. In the cheap small EV's I agree they are small, but they are certainly not rubbish.

More advanced cars such as the BMW i3 can pre-condition the battery while on the charger and you get its full range in the winter. You can also buy a model that has a petrol range extender of which you can essentially just keep filling it with petrol and it will never run out.

Tesla have fairly advanced warming and cooling capabilities to manage the condition of the battery and get the maximum range from it. You can also charge it at up to 120kw which is 170 miles in 30 mins.

A Leaf will cover 80% of journey undertaken and in a two car household as others have said that figure just skyrockets.
 
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