** January Transfer Window 2011/12 Season Rumours/Signings **
- Thread starter Gilly
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No, route one 'hoof' it football isn't a viable tactic any more. Barcelona have shown that you don't need a back up plan either. I'd like to point out that more and more sides are playing 'passing' football in the Premier League Swansea, Arsenal, Chelsea (now), Spurs, Blackburn, to name a few.
When was the last time a 'route one' football side or a side with a big man up top do anything in Europe? World Football? In the elite echelons of football the big man up top and hoof ball isn't viable tactic. Germany, Spain, Brasil, Italy, France, Argentina et al don't play 'hoof' it football, in fact even the 'lesser' European teams don't play hoof it football.
A bit different? No, again you're spouting rubbish. The Championship and League One have much improved in terms of long ball football too.
At least you've not mentioned Carroll and N'Zogbia this time round.
Manchester United play with wingers, have done for as long as I can remember not long ball football. There is a difference between a long ball up to the big man and a sweeping diagonal ball to spread the play. (This is something that Gerrard and Scholes do / did very well)
Yeah
Nor do I, it's far too nice for G|MP.
Caporegime
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Tummy forget huth football for a second. Germany play klose mail for his Ariel threat irrespective of long ball.
Spain bring llorrente on when a smaller man isn't cutting it.
Barca are not a good example Im afraid - they are incomparable. They are the only team in the world who plays like this and that can play like this. That they have possibly the best player ever helps massively. We don't have their luxuries nor are we in a league called la liga. we play against samba and kompany's of the world who not these soft Spanish defences.
Re barca back up plan... Isn't that what everyone is saying that the DO now need because teams are working out ways to stop them hence they are 2nd in la liga ?
Infact you are missing the two prongs of the argument does not inspire me that you even understand my point at all.
Spain bring llorrente on when a smaller man isn't cutting it.
Barca are not a good example Im afraid - they are incomparable. They are the only team in the world who plays like this and that can play like this. That they have possibly the best player ever helps massively. We don't have their luxuries nor are we in a league called la liga. we play against samba and kompany's of the world who not these soft Spanish defences.
Re barca back up plan... Isn't that what everyone is saying that the DO now need because teams are working out ways to stop them hence they are 2nd in la liga ?
Infact you are missing the two prongs of the argument does not inspire me that you even understand my point at all.
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Newcastle allegedly put e £15 mil price tag on Tim Krul. Think he's worth it?
Soldato
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Average distribution from what I saw, but his shot stopping seems good and general faultlessness can mean he's worth 15 million purely for not being very mistake prone. 23 is a good age as well.
Proven in the league, but i'd probably be more tempted to splash 3-5mil on an unknown rather than 15 million on him.
Caporegime
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Notion 1: UTD dont play long ball football. So?!
Good, if we establish that we dont play long ball football, and that neither do spain or germany. Spain using LLorrente doesnt force them to play long ball football. Germany playing Klose doesnt force them to play long ball football.
So why would Carroll signing for UTD force utd to play long ball football? (this is where you answer)
Notion 2: UTD DO play long ball football.
In my view UTD do play a lot of long ball/direct football. But we are not fantastic at retaining the ball after the punt .. why?! - because our front men are too weak/small/etc. (exception here is rooney). SO adding an Andy Carroll of this world can only help us to do better what we already do.
Absolute:
UTD average 26 crosses a game.
Rooney is only just over 6ft as is berba and frankly berba is not an outmuscle a defender kind of guy. So if we have either of these 2 players out what happens? We go for Wellbeck, again not a header...okay hernandez..getting smaller and smaller.. then we go to micheal owen whos even smaller...
How about instead of having wellbeck > Hernandez > Owen - we bring in a big man instead?
SO, regardless of how effective you think that long ball football is in the UK, or whether you think we play it or not, there are examples of teams using big men and NOT reverting to long ball. At the same time there are examples of teams who play long ball to big men and it does work. By not having someone capable of playing this role we are most definitely missing a trick given that:
UTD average 26 crosses per game.
This is obvious, to you. To me. To everyone so why havent we have ar least one of these types of players in the last 5 years who can do those roles properly? Im working on the premise that we havent and will not in the forseeable future. But that at 10015 mill Carroll could give us something that we do not already have.
Good, if we establish that we dont play long ball football, and that neither do spain or germany. Spain using LLorrente doesnt force them to play long ball football. Germany playing Klose doesnt force them to play long ball football.
So why would Carroll signing for UTD force utd to play long ball football? (this is where you answer)
Notion 2: UTD DO play long ball football.
In my view UTD do play a lot of long ball/direct football. But we are not fantastic at retaining the ball after the punt .. why?! - because our front men are too weak/small/etc. (exception here is rooney). SO adding an Andy Carroll of this world can only help us to do better what we already do.
Absolute:
UTD average 26 crosses a game.
Rooney is only just over 6ft as is berba and frankly berba is not an outmuscle a defender kind of guy. So if we have either of these 2 players out what happens? We go for Wellbeck, again not a header...okay hernandez..getting smaller and smaller.. then we go to micheal owen whos even smaller...
How about instead of having wellbeck > Hernandez > Owen - we bring in a big man instead?
SO, regardless of how effective you think that long ball football is in the UK, or whether you think we play it or not, there are examples of teams using big men and NOT reverting to long ball. At the same time there are examples of teams who play long ball to big men and it does work. By not having someone capable of playing this role we are most definitely missing a trick given that:
UTD average 26 crosses per game.
This is obvious, to you. To me. To everyone so why havent we have ar least one of these types of players in the last 5 years who can do those roles properly? Im working on the premise that we havent and will not in the forseeable future. But that at 10015 mill Carroll could give us something that we do not already have.
I think he is definetely a very good prospect, especially at 23/24?
Whether he is worth that much I'm not sure but for the future definetely.
Why do you seem to think that Liverpool will lose him for 10 - 15 million less than what they paid 12 months ago?
Is this because the Sun said he will be up for sale?
Do you also think that Liverpool would sell to United?
Do you think that he would be a success, seeing as he hasn't been at Anfield?
I have no idea about what the Sun have wrote but the Times article states that Newcastle would be willing to pay £15m for Carroll but that Newcastle believe that Liverpool would want at least £25m. There's nothing from Liverpool's perspective probably because Liverpool have no intention of selling him.
Caporegime
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Jesus, its really pretty simple, none of your situations matter. It sounded at first like you were saying Utd play long ball so buying a big striker would somehow help.
What I very clearly said, was that big men aren't actually the best at getting to crosses, the "biggest" men are all turd in the air. Rooney WILL score more than Carroll playing long ball and crossing it in IF HE STAYS UPFRONT and plays as a ruddy striker.
Buying someone limited for a limited role........ when you can buy a player who can do everything, is just retarded.
I made this argument with Hernandez, sure if you want someone who ONLY runs beyond the defence and gets tap ins, but is incapable of everything else, buy Hernandez. The problem is this........ you can buy a player who can do that, AND is good in the air, AND is a good passer, AND can play other positions AND is an actually great footballer.
Hernandez is an incredibly limited player, there are better players who are also equally as good at Hernandez at the one thing he does well....... so why have Hernandez, why get Carroll? There are BETTER players who are equally as good at the role you envisage for him and can do SO much more.
A GREAT footballer can play almost anywhere, a limited footballer might fill one role but will suck when asked to do other things. Surely Utd should learn, Park supposedly is good as a bit of a terrier, working hard in big games, personally I think he's mostly crap at everything but there you go. But when you've got injuries you have him playing other roles he is useless at and it hurts the team. If you simply had a better player, he'd do better when called upon in all situations.
Yes, smaller teams don't have a huge choice and do often go with what they can get. Utd, come on, think big, you're one of the top 3 clubs in the world, huge turnover, huge income, win something almost every year..... you should be looking at top draw players or players with huge potential, not highly limited players.
10-15mil won't buy you anything you don't have. Put Rooney in that role, and he can score headed goals, someone really does need to sit Rooney down and tell him he's not a midfielder. The one season he was truly prolific, he didn't frequently drop deep, he didn't try and be Xavi, he didn't try and run the game in midfield, he let midfielders do their job and he did his job better than he has done before that season or since.
What I very clearly said, was that big men aren't actually the best at getting to crosses, the "biggest" men are all turd in the air. Rooney WILL score more than Carroll playing long ball and crossing it in IF HE STAYS UPFRONT and plays as a ruddy striker.
Buying someone limited for a limited role........ when you can buy a player who can do everything, is just retarded.
I made this argument with Hernandez, sure if you want someone who ONLY runs beyond the defence and gets tap ins, but is incapable of everything else, buy Hernandez. The problem is this........ you can buy a player who can do that, AND is good in the air, AND is a good passer, AND can play other positions AND is an actually great footballer.
Hernandez is an incredibly limited player, there are better players who are also equally as good at Hernandez at the one thing he does well....... so why have Hernandez, why get Carroll? There are BETTER players who are equally as good at the role you envisage for him and can do SO much more.
A GREAT footballer can play almost anywhere, a limited footballer might fill one role but will suck when asked to do other things. Surely Utd should learn, Park supposedly is good as a bit of a terrier, working hard in big games, personally I think he's mostly crap at everything but there you go. But when you've got injuries you have him playing other roles he is useless at and it hurts the team. If you simply had a better player, he'd do better when called upon in all situations.
Yes, smaller teams don't have a huge choice and do often go with what they can get. Utd, come on, think big, you're one of the top 3 clubs in the world, huge turnover, huge income, win something almost every year..... you should be looking at top draw players or players with huge potential, not highly limited players.
10-15mil won't buy you anything you don't have. Put Rooney in that role, and he can score headed goals, someone really does need to sit Rooney down and tell him he's not a midfielder. The one season he was truly prolific, he didn't frequently drop deep, he didn't try and be Xavi, he didn't try and run the game in midfield, he let midfielders do their job and he did his job better than he has done before that season or since.
Caporegime
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Yes like everyone else Im using paper figures and i notre that the argument has changed from - it wouldn't work to you won't get him. which is it?
It doesn't even have to be carroll i like that French guy Hoarau.
I really struggle with your posts, do you spell like that on purpose.
I've not changed my stance at all, it wouldn't work for a team like United, it doesn't work for Liverpool.
I am trying to mkae you see the error of your thought, if you want to see your team go backwards, then fair enough
Caporegime
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Big men aren't the best at getting to crosses? Strewth bro you missed pantimilion getting to a cross at weekend? Was that just fluke?
If big men up front didn't work why as emergency measures have we thrown smalling up front lol?
Rvn was never the quickest best passer but he had size and bulk yet he scored many goals. lets not forget that carroll can kick with his feet. Im sure he scored some pretty decent goals. its having th presence to bump defenders like samba and hold his own.
for instance have you seen yakubu lately? He has been leaving a trail of destruction - defenders goalkeepers all in a mess on the deck. we lack this.
If big men up front didn't work why as emergency measures have we thrown smalling up front lol?
Rvn was never the quickest best passer but he had size and bulk yet he scored many goals. lets not forget that carroll can kick with his feet. Im sure he scored some pretty decent goals. its having th presence to bump defenders like samba and hold his own.
for instance have you seen yakubu lately? He has been leaving a trail of destruction - defenders goalkeepers all in a mess on the deck. we lack this.
Caporegime
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I really struggle with your posts, do you spell like that on purpose.
I've not changed my stance at all, it wouldn't work for a team like United, it doesn't work for Liverpool.
I am trying to mkae you see the error of your thought, if you want to see your team go backwards, then fair enough
Yes mate i try to spell as poorly as you.
It doesn't work for Liverpool? What HAS worked for Liverpool lately? Remember they have downing and no right wingers crossing the ball..
Caporegime
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Don't really know where you're going with this. Berbatov and Wellbeck are both taller than Yakubu and Rooney's just as strong if not stronger
If I had to guess someone's been playing Football Manager and has two beanpoles up front scoring 20+ a season.
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