Japanese Grand Prix 2011, Suzuka Circuit - Race 15/19

Mr Men said:
... My main point is give Lewis the top car as he had in 07 and 08 and he will probably do just fine (unless he presses the wrong button or destroys his tyres), give him some problems in the car and he will fall apart, as we saw early in 2009. Even this year he is in the 2nd best car and still behind Alonso never mind being beaten by Jenson. ...
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Agreed; Alonso absolutely destroyed Hamilton in the same car in Hamilton's first year in F1 ;)
 
Thing about Vettel is that he has had an even more cushy introduction to F1 than even Hamilton had. We are starting to see a little bit of Hamilton's downfall and his ultimate realisation that his first 2 years were really a gift and not something that come easily.

Vettel has had 3 years at RBR where he has been given a championship potential car. And he's scored 2 out of 3.

There's been plenty of signs of his underlying so-called "petulance" over the last couple years.

What is going to happen to him when finally RBR/Newey does drop the ball and give him a dog of a car? I do fear his meltdown will be even worse than Hamilton's!
 
NathanE said:
Thing about Vettel is that he has had an even more cushy introduction to F1 than even Hamilton had. We are starting to see a little bit of Hamilton's downfall and his ultimate realisation that his first 2 years were really a gift and not something that come easily.

Vettel has had 3 years at RBR where he has been given a championship potential car. And he's scored 2 out of 3.

There's been plenty of signs of his underlying so-called "petulance" over the last couple years.

What is going to happen to him when finally RBR/Newey does drop the ball and give him a dog of a car? I do fear his meltdown will be even worse than Hamilton's!
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He got on alright at Toro Rosso, which wasn't a field leading car, much more of a 'regular' introduction to F1 than jumping straight into a title competitive McLaren.

I still think he showed more signs of ultimate abilities as a racer whilst he was at Toro Rosso than he has since moving to Red Bull and being given such a masterpiece of a car.
 
So let me get this straight, Hamilton's success has nothing to do with his abilities, and everything to do with the fact McLaren funded him?

So McLaren, one of the most successful racing teams of all time, are now just manufacturing champions by picking randomers and throwing money at them?
 
NathanE said:
Thing about Vettel is that he has had an even more cushy introduction to F1 than even Hamilton had.
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No he didnt - he paid his dues as a test driver at BMW Sauber and as a driver at Toro Rosso - they werent backmarkers I give you that as they were in their Minardi colours, but neither were than anything but middle of the pack which they still are today...

Hes the only driver to pull that STR up to make it a consistent points scoring machine and to get a podium out of it (awaits the excuses of exceptional circumstances that allowed Vettel to win)...

ps3ud0 :cool:
 
Kenai said:
He got on alright at Toro Rosso, which wasn't a field leading car, much more of a 'regular' introduction to F1 than jumping straight into a title competitive McLaren.

I still think he showed more signs of ultimate abilities as a racer whilst he was at Toro Rosso than he has since moving to Red Bull and being given such a masterpiece of a car.
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Did he though? The only impressive thing I remember is him overtaking Hamilton in the last lap of Brazil 2008. But Hamilton was running low downforce setup, in the wet, and had a plastic bag wrapped around the front of his plank's tea tray that was further destroying downforce.

Monza 2008 was luck. He got lucky that everybody in front of him screwed up their qualifying and overtaking back then was far harder, so they couldn't recover enough places in the race.


... Contrast this with Hamilton in 2009, driving the slowest car on the grid. And yet, if it wasn't for McLaren telling him to give the position back and the Liegate that then ensued, he would have scored a podium on the very first race of the season.
 
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That's the thing really isn't it — there's so many factors that result in a driver winning the WDC. Vettel said as much during the press conference, there's so many people he needed to thank not least of all his personal trainer who kept him on the straight and narrow mentally.

He's been the perfect package this season: The car has had the pace and reliability, the team have nailed the strategy and pit stops, and he has delivered consistent, near perfect drives during qualifying and race day.

Success breeds success.

Last season RBR and Vettel were good but they had their moments. The car was unreliable at first, the team made mistakes, Vettel was reckless more than once and Webber was taking points off him. All of which led to a very close WDC.

This season, except on a few rare occasions the car, team and driver have been flawless.

Lewis has had a funny old season. He started with plenty of potential but the mistakes of Monaco and then Canada seemed to really hit him hard. He had a great win in Germany but since then he's been 4th, 5th or DNF.

In the same way that Vettel's continued success has made him better each race, it seems Hamilton is on a bit of a downward spiral. Even when he's doing well events seem to transpire against him e.g. his puncture yesterday.

I don't think people should be too quick to write him off — hopefully he can sort his head out, get a bit of luck back on his side and find his winning form again.

Equally my perception of Vettel has changes this season because of the reasons above.

Yes, he's got a good car and a good team but he has been faultless this season.
 
I think anyone doubting Vettel's talent as a driver needs urgent medication. Having the best car is only half of the equation and back to back WDC wins means he is something special.

He didn't just beat the rest of the field, he destroyed them.
 
No matter what pressure has been on him, no matter what the press have said about him, no matter what team politics and arguments with his team mate have been going on, Vettel has repeatedly pulled away from the line, and banged in 2 laps 1 second faster than everyone else.

The guy has won the WDC by simply being the fastest, which in its purest form, is what racing is all about.
 
Skeeter said:
Vettel has repeatedly pulled away from the line, and banged in 2 laps 1 second faster than everyone else.

The guy has won the WDC by simply being the fastest, which in its purest form, is what racing is all about.
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Indeed hes fully aware of the DRS zone and how if he lets someone near him its gives them a small opportunity, so he does the intelligent thing and not even allow that. Those first two laps makes his race usually...

Same with Button and Alonso yesterday - Alonso was so close to the 1second gap but soon as he was Button did PBs/purples to manage that gap as hes intelligent enough to recognise/be aware of that the Ferrari was the king of the third sector all weekend and with the DRS zone being placed there could have made an overtake relatively easily. Button knew how close he was to the wire with fuel, but managed the situation so it never could turn sour...

ps3ud0 :cool:
 
Skeeter said:
No matter what pressure has been on him, no matter what the press have said about him, no matter what team politics and arguments with his team mate have been going on, Vettel has repeatedly pulled away from the line, and banged in 2 laps 1 second faster than everyone else.

The guy has won the WDC by simply being the fastest, which in its purest form, is what racing is all about.
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Helps with the blown diffuser to get an early advantage, it will be gone next year :D
 
ps3ud0 said:
Indeed hes fully aware of the DRS zone and how if he lets someone near him its gives them a small opportunity, so he does the intelligent thing and not even allow that. Those first two laps makes his race usually...

Same with Button and Alonso yesterday - Alonso was so close to the 1second gap but soon as he was Button did PBs/purples to manage that gap as hes intelligent enough to recognise/be aware of that the Ferrari was the king of the third sector all weekend and with the DRS zone being placed there could have made an overtake relatively easily. Button knew how close he was to the wire with fuel, but managed the situation so it never could turn sour...

ps3ud0 :cool:
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Yup but still JB managed to complain after the race about McLaren not providing him with information about Alonso's attack except for on the pit boards. He was like "oh thanks guys for not telling me", in a jokey but clearly serious manner.

McLaren has serious problems. I don't think the concept they introduced in 2010 whereby both drivers share all the engineers is working. It isn't personal enough, especially for Hamilton who needs a Rocky-style engineer like Vettel has. And it could have almost cost JB a race win. So so easily could have.

I have a feeling McLaren will, now they've proven to JB that they really are unbiased with their drivers (as that's the only reason it was done in the first place!), revert to the more traditional engineer per driver that other teams use.
 
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Mr Men said:
Ah so you think every team has it working to the same level lol

Red Bull and McLaren had hissy fits when the FIA wanted to ban it, says it all :)
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Uh? What? :confused:

Im so confused trying to follow your logic. Are you trying to say that the Red Bull is 1 second a lap faster purely because of the blown diffuser? A blown diffuser you then say both McLaren and Red Bull have? What was wrong with Webber's car that meant he didn't pull out 1 second a lap too?

Seriously, I get the feeling you would swear blind that Vettels car was painted green if it allowed you to have some sort of pop at him.

NathanE - I wasn't aware McLaren were mixing the sides of the garage. Your right a Rocky/Vettel, or Rob/Massa style solid relationship is definitely the best way to do it. If I was a driver I would want my eyes and ears over the rest of the field to be someone I had absolute trust in, not whoever the team randomly decide to assign to me on a given day.
 
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ps3ud0 said:
Indeed hes fully aware of the DRS zone and how if he lets someone near him its gives them a small opportunity, so he does the intelligent thing and not even allow that. Those first two laps makes his race usually...

Same with Button and Alonso yesterday - Alonso was so close to the 1second gap but soon as he was Button did PBs/purples to manage that gap as hes intelligent enough to recognise/be aware of that the Ferrari was the king of the third sector all weekend and with the DRS zone being placed there could have made an overtake relatively easily. Button knew how close he was to the wire with fuel, but managed the situation so it never could turn sour...

ps3ud0 :cool:
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You really need to watch the forum afterwards. :p

But yes, there was an element of that.
 
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