Japanese Grand Prix 2015, Suzuka - Race 14/19

leaskovski said:
So a driver isn't allowed to "squeeze" another driver then? I guess Hamilton was being "a massive ****" as well when he squeezed Rosberg at the end of the first corner? When everyone starts of the line, they are all trying to cover the other side of the track from which they started, even more so if they dont get a great start. Do you think they all stop and think about the possibility of another car the other side of the car beside them... nope, they don't.

Haters gonna hate.
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He moved across the track into a driver next to him because he likely(as always) didn't know there was another car outside of Ricciardo. Hamilton knew what was to Rosberg's left and Rosberg had the choice to both back out or go out wide. Massa however turned into Ricciardo, Ricciardo had absolutely no where to go at all and Massa still kept going. That is the difference. Massa turns into people all the time paying no freaking attention to where the other car is going to go. He ended up putting himself at the back of the race and ruined another drivers race.

Not haters gonna hate, fanboy gonna defend the utterly useless plonker that is Massa.
 
For those saying Mercedes weren't being actively ignored, Hamilton had a huge issue with a flat spotted tire in the second stint. He went around for 15 laps on a very bad tire. Now be honest, if any driver did that and if any driver was on the radio talking about it (presumable multiple times) we would normally get a replay of the lock up, some slow mo video of that damaged tire on future laps to show the damage, they would play the radio message, they would show the pitstop to see the damaged tire coming off.

For me that would be standard way to cover anyone with a serious tire issue in the race, that they didn't for me only proves they were directed by, well it can only really be Bernie, to put them on camera as little as possible. It's one thing if the leader is out on their own doing nothing, but another entirely if there is a problem going on. Likewise most races, often not a good thing, even if there is potential last lap overtaking action they usually show the winner around maybe the last half of the lap unless an overtake is actually happening. Again here they ignored him till what coming out of the last corner. Something very odd going on there for sure.
 
I thought Alonso's comments were interesting.

He was frustrated that drivers in faster cars were making mistakes all over the place while him driving perfectly can do nothing but be overtaken by these same drivers.

Shouldn't have left Ferrari then.
 
muon said:
I thought Alonso's comments were interesting.

He was frustrated that drivers in faster cars were making mistakes all over the place while him driving perfectly can do nothing but be overtaken by these same drivers.

Shouldn't have left Ferrari then.
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When Verstappen was stuck behind Alonso, with the BBC commentators saying how Verstappen was getting a lesson in how to drive. Next lap, Alonso screwed up the chicane, Verstappen got a run and swept around the outside of him coming out of the main straight. Verstappen didn't look like he was being schooled just then. I laughed.
 
Put it on iplayer in the background. Can't be bothered watching them live. Just background noise while I fiddle about on laptop.

It's not just the racing, it's everything.
I'm moving over to btcc. I'll just watch it on catch up.

Bottom line, I want to be entertained. F1 isn't doing that

With engines how they are, it's just almost impossible to catch up for years even if you know how to. Red bull throwing tantrums, teams strapped for cash, Drs requirement,

Haven't watched a live race for months. Sometimes I leave it a week or two to watch.

Most other motorsports seem to have entertainment, cheaper to run, and less off track tantrums.

Threads in here are pretty small too.
Glad I never considered sky
 
Just to add I thought Hamilton shoving Rosberg off the track at turn 2 was harsh too. He only does it to Rosberg and he doesn't need to - he's got him well and truly beaten as it is.

You could guarantee if Rosberg started doing it (I wish he would to make a race out of it) the forum would be up in arms.


Steampunk said:
When Verstappen was stuck behind Alonso, with the BBC commentators saying how Verstappen was getting a lesson in how to drive. Next lap, Alonso screwed up the chicane, Verstappen got a run and swept around the outside of him coming out of the main straight. Verstappen didn't look like he was being schooled just then. I laughed.
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I think it was more a case of Alonso had to drive each corner perfectly to not allow a driver to pass. As soon as he made a tiny mistake, one anyone else would have got away with, he was being passed. I thought Alonso did a cracking job keeping probably the best overtaker in the sport this year back for as long as he did. It was the only entertaining part of the race.

I was blown away when Button was overtaken by two cars down the straight early on. We knew Honda were bad, but that was something else. Even the normally asperated engines vs the turbo ones in the 80s was closer than this.

Presumably they had to move away from a map which gave the overall best laptime in order to have some performance left to defend into the chicane and down the start/finish straight, and even that wasn't enough.

Will Honda have enough tokens left to give them any sort of performance next year? They're even way behind Renault.
 
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this_is_gav said:
Just to add I thought Hamilton shoving Rosberg off the track at turn 2 was harsh too. He only does it to Rosberg and he doesn't need to - he's got him well and truly beaten as it is.

You could guarantee if Rosberg started doing it (I wish he would to make a race out of it) the forum would be up in arms.



.
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Hamilton didn't push him off the track though, he was ahead and the corner was his so Rosberg had to back out. I don't know why people are making a fuss about this pass, I think it's partly because there is nothing else to talk about as it was so boring.
 
drunkenmaster said:
He moved across the track into a driver next to him because he likely(as always) didn't know there was another car outside of Ricciardo. Hamilton knew what was to Rosberg's left and Rosberg had the choice to both back out or go out wide. Massa however turned into Ricciardo, Ricciardo had absolutely no where to go at all and Massa still kept going. That is the difference. Massa turns into people all the time paying no freaking attention to where the other car is going to go. He ended up putting himself at the back of the race and ruined another drivers race.

Not haters gonna hate, fanboy gonna defend the utterly useless plonker that is Massa.
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I'm no Massa fan, lets get that straight. I would rather have seen some other ageing racer take his seat, like Mark Webber returning to Williams to finish his career off.

A driver is not going to have any idea as to if someone is beside another car that is beside them purely down to the lack of visibility. We all know that the wing mirrors only show what is directly behind you (lord knows Brundle never shuts up about this).

Vettle must equally be a wazza then, as he did the same thing this year in Hungary....


The only reason he pulled back over is because of trying to get a better line going in to the first corner, not because he saw that Nico was the otherside of Lewis.
 
this_is_gav said:
Just to add I thought Hamilton shoving Rosberg off the track at turn 2 was harsh too. He only does it to Rosberg and he doesn't need to - he's got him well and truly beaten as it is.

You could guarantee if Rosberg started doing it (I wish he would to make a race out of it) the forum would be up in arms.
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It's such a common thing, it even has it's own name "hanging a driver out to dry". If you put yourself on the outside of a bend, the car ahead on the inside can take the racing line and you will be pushed out.

It's always risky to try and overtake someone by going the long way around the outside of a corner, and it rarely works for that reason. You need a lot more speed, grip and traction than the person on the inside who has the shorter, direct racing line.

Rosberg knew this would happen, and hoped in the charity of a championship rival to let him through. Hamilton knew that if he did so, Rosberg would be able to get through the corner and get power down slightly sooner. As Hamilton has done this to Rosberg (and others) time and time again, you have to ask why Rosberg put himself in that position and was then surprised that the same thing happened again.

It's like Rosberg doesn't know when to choose his battles, when to overtake, and when to bide his time. The team has to tell him when to attack and when to hold off. Going round the outside of Hamilton had a poor chance of success, and a large chance of coming off worse (as Rosberg did). Rosberg should have waited for a better opportunity where the odds of success were in his favour.
 
Watched the 2005 race on Sky last night. As didn't have much better to do with the evening.
Amazing how much that ****** all over what we have now.

I know there were plenty grim races over those years, the Trulli train was all too common. But you had multiple teams who could challenge the front.

I wished I hadn't got up to watch the race yesterday. The most interesting thing was the Alonso comments, and Ron Dennis blundering interviews afterwards.
Really hope there are some genuine challengers to Mercedes next year. You can say Ferrari are in it as much as you like, migh challenge for wins here and there, but it is not a championship contender.
 
Steampunk said:
It's such a common thing, it even has it's own name "hanging a driver out to dry". If you put yourself on the outside of a bend, the car ahead on the inside can take the racing line and you will be pushed out.
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And I hate it. My memory best remembers Schumacher as the first one to do it in F1, to Montoya at Imola, and I've despised it since.

Its a piece of race-track, just like any other bit. It's the usual racing-line in the wet, but in the dry you're not allowed to go there otherwise you'll get pushed off? If there was a wall or barrier there you'd be serving a drive-through and getting points on your license for putting someone in the wall. In karting if you did that more than once they'd haul you into the pits.

It shouldn't be up to the driver behind to back out of it. He's as much in the right as the one on the inside. There's nothing in the sporting code about a driver blindly sticking to the racing line.

My issue with the Merc drivers is that I can't recall Rosberg doing it to Hamilton and Hamilton never does it to anyone else, only Rosberg. It's like he's trying to assert himself over Rosberg, but he's already broken the guy.
 
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I agreed with Ron when he said that teams should be allowed to choose to spend their money to develop their way out of problems, otherwise you end up with the team that got it right at the beginning of a rules change dominating for years while no one else can move forwards.

If you can't improve your car or engine, how are you supposed to progress and become one of many teams challenging for the win? Wait three years for the next rule change?

It's telling that he also said that all these rules designed to save money have ended up costing more than what they had before.
 
this_is_gav said:
And I hate it. My memory best remembers Schumacher as the first one to do it in F1, to Montoya at Imola, and I've despised it since.

Its a piece of race-track, just like any other bit. It's the usual racing-line in the wet, but in the dry you're not allowed to go there otherwise you'll get pushed off? If there was a wall or barrier there you'd be serving a drive-through and getting points on your license for putting someone in the wall. In karting if you did that more than once they'd haul you into the pits.

It shouldn't be up to the driver behind to back out of it. He's as much in the right as the one on the inside. There's nothing in the sporting code about a driver blindly sticking to the racing line.

My issue with the Merc drivers is that I can't recall Rosberg doing it to Hamilton and Hamilton never does it to anyone else, only Rosberg. It's like he's trying to assert himself over Rosberg, but he's already broken the guy.
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I think you've got selective memory there, maybe because Rosberg is the only one with another Mercedes to get alongside Hamilton.

Fact is, the racing line is the best line, the fastest and most direct. The driver trying to go off that always has to do it better and safer, especially if he is the one doing the overtaking. Trying to force a driver on the line to pull in harder is just as likely to see his back end slip (especially at the start of the race on cold tyres) and Hamilton would have ended up in the gravel, and collected Rosberg on the way out too.

Going around the outside is always a chance, always higher risk, and you can't and shouldn't mitigate that by somehow mandating that the car that's ahead and on the shorter line has to give way to let the overtaking car past without any effort.

Drivers used to block and weave about, and this was mandated out in the name of safety, and now you don't even want overtaking drivers to have to choose the best and most advantageous places to overtake? Just let everyone by no matter where they put their cars! Force the leading car to leave the racing line to let someone pass from behind! Rosberg can get on the radio and cry "Wahhh, he's not letting me by!" and the FIA will contact the lead driver's team to make them move over! If you did this you would see drivers force themselves into unlikely places in the knowledge they would be allowed to pass with no consequences or effort. It would take the driver skill out of the racing. You wouldn't even have wheel-to-wheel racing, as you've just ruled it out of the sport.

Really, do we want to further sanitize F1 racing while still complaining it's not as good in the old days?
 
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Emlyn_Dewar said:
Watched the 2005 race on Sky last night. As didn't have much better to do with the evening.
Amazing how much that ****** all over what we have now.

I know there were plenty grim races over those years, the Trulli train was all too common. But you had multiple teams who could challenge the front.
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Yeah I watched half of it and was thinking the same , cars following each other closely and unaided overtakes and different cars swapping at the front amazing how much more epic it felt even with james alan screaming his head off was much more enjoyable to watch :p
 
Steampunk said:
Fact is, the racing line is the best line, the fastest and most direct. The driver trying to go off that always has to do it better and safer, especially if he is the one doing the overtaking. Trying to force a driver on the line to pull in harder is just as likely to see his back end slip (especially at the start of the race on cold tyres) and Hamilton would have ended up in the gravel, and collected Rosberg on the way out too.
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Or you could, you know, just go a little slower and give some space. :rolleyes:

Steampunk said:
Drivers used to block and weave about, and this was mandated out in the name of safety, and now you don't even want overtaking drivers to have to choose the best and most advantageous places to overtake? Just let everyone by no matter where they put their cars! Force the leading car to leave the racing line to let someone pass from behind! Rosberg can get on the radio and cry "Wahhh, he's not letting me by!" and the FIA will contact the lead driver's team to make them move over! If you did this you would see drivers force themselves into unlikely places in the knowledge they would be allowed to pass with no consequences or effort. It would take the driver skill out of the racing. You wouldn't even have wheel-to-wheel racing, as you've just ruled it out of the sport.

Really, do we want to further sanitize F1 racing while still complaining it's not as good in the old days?
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Sanitize F1? This isn't touring cars. All I want if is if you've got a car on your inside, don't turn in on them and if they're on the outside don't allow your car to move up the track towards them.

For the record "the good old days" nothing like this would have ever happened because if it did, it almost invariably ended up with injury. The "good old days" was full of gentlemen drivers if you hadn't noticed, where your rival was often (and remained) your friend.
 
this_is_gav said:
Or you could, you know, just go a little slower and give some space. :rolleyes:
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"Go a little slower"? How about if the lead driver brakes mid-corner? Think that would have been okay in Suzuka with the rest of the field coming through at high speed? Did you want to see a massive multi-car smash up? Or did you just forget that racing is about going fast? :rolleyes: right back at you.

this_is_gav said:
Sanitize F1? This isn't touring cars. All I want if is if you've got a car on your inside, don't turn in on them and if they're on the outside don't allow your car to move up the track towards them.
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Yeah, why let any car move at all? Let's all have them race on separate days and just see who's fastest against the clock? That way they don't have to deal with the nasty business of actually using skill to get past any other driver.

this_is_gav said:
For the record "the good old days" nothing like this would have ever happened because if it did, it almost invariably ended up with injury. The "good old days" was full of gentlemen drivers if you hadn't noticed, where your rival was often (and remained) your friend.
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What rubbish. It's like you've never heard of the many acrimonious rivalries between drivers all trying to win a races at the same time. You've lost all credibility by suggesting that drivers should just go a little slower to make it easier for people to overtake. I think at this point you're just trolling, so welcome to my ignore file.
 
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Emlyn_Dewar said:
Watched the 2005 race on Sky last night. As didn't have much better to do with the evening.
Amazing how much that ****** all over what we have now.

I know there were plenty grim races over those years, the Trulli train was all too common. But you had multiple teams who could challenge the front.

I wished I hadn't got up to watch the race yesterday. The most interesting thing was the Alonso comments, and Ron Dennis blundering interviews afterwards.
Really hope there are some genuine challengers to Mercedes next year. You can say Ferrari are in it as much as you like, migh challenge for wins here and there, but it is not a championship contender.
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http://www.huwselby.com/f1/f1vids.htm :D
 
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