Jenson v's Lewis

Why do people say that Lewis is a better 'racer'? In what way is Jenson not as good a racer? I would agree that Lewis appears more daring and aggressive in his lines and overtakes, but has he really shown more raw speed than Jenson? I'm not saying he hasn't, genuine question.

Plus I think that Lewis has stalled somewhat in his development. Jenson has been consistent. It would probably be more fair to compare Lewis vs Vettel- yes this isn't fair in that they are in different cars, but their development can be compared as they are at comparable stages of their careers.
 
Type_R said:
Seriously though, I think JB got a very lucky break with Brawn in 2009, I doubt he would be in F1 had he not started winning something very soon to where he did.
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Absolute tosh - he always scored decent points when given a fair crack of the whip (ie not Benetton), which is a lot more than can be said for a lot of midfield drivers in the old scoring days (when there were only 6 point-gaining positions)

Type_R said:
Why do some want to compare just 2010 and 2011, if we are talking about how good a racer is we should look at their entire racing career, not just the last two years.
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I wonder if you are questioning this because over the last two years (with a team built around his team-mate, JB has come in - got his feet on the ground and systematically taken Lewis apart in the same car) , or you genuinely dont know that its impossible to know what Lewis might have done in the **** that was the Benetton, or the Honda (or what Jenson could have done in the McLaren in 2008/9 for that matter). We Just Dont Know For Sure

At the end of the day Jenson took years (along with Reubens) to get the Brawn designed right - he didnt "luck " into anything , its even fairer to say the Brawn could have been even better than it was with the engine it was actually designed for



edit - that points comparison isnt so clear cut for several reasons;

1) It doesnt show the retirements for mechanical reasons vs accidents (ie one which driver cant do anything about vs one that is primarily his fault)

2) According to the team JB also had significant KERS issues several times last season which cost him points (even though he scored some). I dont believe LH had anything like the same level of car faults

3) When LH does have faults they are usually relatively minor, and while it stops him from winning, he still scores decent points. JB always seems to get the instant retirement kind - wheels coming off at Silverstone competing for podium, broken axle/transmission in Germany (race before or just after Silverstone) racing for similar position.
 
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sunama said:
When studying a driver you have to look at everything he is doing. F1 (qualifying, race wins, WDC wins, points total), Race of Champions positions and yes, even Top Gear (this is a unique thing because they drive a normal saloon car, with no tweaks or obvious advantage, aside from weather). I only wish that S.Loeb could be allowed to compete in F1 [S.Loeb: what is it now, 8 titles in a row? Imagine if Alonso, for instance, had won 8 titles in a row and was still at the peak of his powers....thats what Loeb is doing in Rallying].
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Now I'm sure there are people here that know, but my understanding of top gear timed laps is it's a man with a stop watch. I'm sure I've read that on multiple forums. With that in mind, take off your watch Sunama and time the same lap from footage over 1m 40 seconds long. Say a lap of suzuka and see how much your accuracy varies.

It's a joke of a comparison for so many reasons. Yet you only want to pick the reasons again which suit you. Different day, track temps, hell we don't even know how old the tyres each car runs with are. That's fine with you for comparison.

Natural ability, you more than twice have ignored my comment on kimi who must have the most natural ability. Well what about Jarno Trulli who is has always been widely reported as being the best kart driver of the lot of them from a young age. Surely that's more of this natural talent.

Anyway back to Lewis v Jenson. Like Flibster if I had to choose between the two right now I'd also go Lewis. Mainly because he's close enough to Jenson who is in the form of his life while being a fair bit younger.

There have also been so many seasons where when it's tight grid position is every thing and Jenson fails to deliver on a saturday far too often.
 
arknor said:
i dont think formula one really suits hamiltons style anymore he would probably murder button with refueling and pushing the car on the limit every lap of the race
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Most race winning F1 drivers drive on the ragged edge, from memory only Hill and button demonstrate the more hooked up smooth driving style. The smooth style really doesn't work if they're fighting the car - they can't drive around problems so easily.

I think this season the car suits Button but will still show the 'on the edge' style wins 9 times out of 10 in qualifying and the smooth and flowing style will be more competitive in the race. As you've said, just due to the way F1 cars race these days smooth gives you an advantage over the course of a race (even if it's just a second here or there coming up to pit stops).

Put somebody like Button in this years Ferrari though and he'd be a laughing stock. Just my opinion.
 
as a team manager, jenson every time...
less likely to crash (stats prove this), more likely to finish, more sponsor friendly currently, is beating his team mate over the same period in the same car...

IMHO Jenson is also more of a team player...witness mr sulky last time out...

Of course it's my opinion...
 
and yes, just goes to show as Button and Vettel have mares...hitting others is never the way to go, however Hamilton looked pretty ordinary as well!

:)
 
Button.

Cooler head. Best on tires. Best at strategy. Better team player.

Lewis is faster, but far too reckless when in the pack.
 
JRS said:
The JB-LH McLaren partnership so far (i.e. including last time out in Australia)

JB - 6 wins, 509 points
LH - 6 wins, 482 points
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To steal JRS points total and update it :)

JB 6 wins, 509 points 0 Poles 5 fastest laps, 20 podiums.
LH 6 wins, 497 points 4 Poles 8 fastest laps, 17 podiums.

Anyway you look at that it's a lot lot closer than even the biggest JB fans would have dreamed when he quit Brawn at the end of 2009. :)

The only other stat I'd be interested in comparison is how many times over the 2 and a bit years Lewis has outqualified JB. Anyone have it?
 
dannyjo22 said:
JB 6 wins, 509 points 0 Poles 5 fastest laps, 20 podiums.
LH 6 wins, 497 points 4 Poles 8 fastest laps, 17 podiums.

Anyway you look at that it's a lot lot closer than even the biggest JB fans would have dreamed when he quit Brawn at the end of 2009. :)
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This is a key point. Everyone - even the proper experts (not just us armchair geeks) seemed of the opinion that JB was effectively going to destroy his career by pitting himself against LH.

I've always been a Button man, and was well chuffed for his title, but I was worried when he signed for McLaren - it was make or break for his reputation and career.
 
Not read the thread but Ill weigh in, on his day LH would beat JB, but him being 'on his day' is a rare event becoming even rarer as he gets older.

Id take JBs consistency, intelligence, maturity and humility any day of the week; in years to come JB will be the one remembered like other British non-'greats'; LH wont be at all. I look forward to when JB becomes the BRDC president after he completely retires - think hes a real British sports ambassador.

Personally JB makes me proud to be British, LH never has

EDIT: Bah trust me to not read the thread properly and so totally miss the point. I think LH did have more natural talent than JB, but considering the amount of years they have been racing before F1 I think that influence is markedly reduced today. If I put them both into an alien motorsport event (lets say hoverboarding) Id wouldnt be surprised that LH would wrangle out the best performance from the off. Now stick them in a motorsport/car they know just aswell and I doubt Id see much difference from the off, that innate characteristic just wouldnt translate into a much better performance due to previous long-term practise, indeed I think over that period of time JB would outperform LH on the basis hes had to 'work harder/smarter' and therefore has a better ability to apply knowledge.

To me having such natural talent made and broke LH, he just needs the maturity to gather himself up as he would end up being a better driver (nee racer), JB did that during his Honda years and now I very much doubt hes as complacent and hes driving far better than he ever has done...

EDIT2: Thanks dannyjo22 for picking the holes that you did - tired of doing it myself...

ps3ud0 :cool:
 
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Quite nice to see JB hold his hands up and say it was his fault for the coming together with NK. Quite disgusted that SV called him and idiot after he made a mistake and hit NK after he went wide. As said multiple times JB seems a pretty liekable chap all round
 
3dcandy said:
Quite nice to see JB hold his hands up and say it was his fault for the coming together with NK. Quite disgusted that SV called him and idiot after he made a mistake and hit NK after he went wide. As said multiple times JB seems a pretty liekable chap all round
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I like the fact that he took the blame, I thought it was the decent thing to do. Do get a bit annoyed every time he complains about the car though...

kd
 
JB certainly comes across better in the media and demonstrates a certain maturity. LH is markedly younger, in terms of age and experience, which shows.

Last year was the crunch for LH and I believe he will emerge stronger and more mature because of it. JB has already been through this.

If I was to pick one... it depends on what I wanted to achieve -

Long term, probably Lewis as I still believe he will mature to become a more complete, consistent driver. This season might be a turning point though, he appears to be playing the long game for once.

Short term, probably Jenson as I think he has the consistency and maturity to deliver a title earlier. He is fickle with his cars though, but demonstrates fantastic race craft in the heat of the moment.

Regardless, they both have their strengths and their skills compliment one another in an overall team enviroment - this is why Mclaren have hands down the best team of drivers.
 
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dannyjo22 said:
To steal JRS points total and update it :)

JB 6 wins, 509 points 0 Poles 5 fastest laps, 20 podiums.
LH 6 wins, 497 points 4 Poles 8 fastest laps, 17 podiums.

Anyway you look at that it's a lot lot closer than even the biggest JB fans would have dreamed when he quit Brawn at the end of 2009. :)

The only other stat I'd be interested in comparison is how many times over the 2 and a bit years Lewis has outqualified JB. Anyone have it?
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how about a stat which details , self imposed non-scoring races / vs team or technical withdrawls?

JB has lost many more points than LH through team tecnichal retirements and yesterday was the first time he caused a retirement (from my memory , which I admit is falible) so this adds a lot of points to LH's tally ....
 
FrankJH said:
how about a stat which details , self imposed non-scoring races / vs team or technical withdrawls?
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Good luck getting agreement on those.

But 'what if' situations are very dubious anyway. Whats to say that if he didn't for example drive into Kobayashi in Spa that his engine wouldn't have exploded the next lap? You can count retirements as a raw number, but that's about it.
 
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FrankJH said:
how about a stat which details , self imposed non-scoring races / vs team or technical withdrawls?

JB has lost many more points than LH through team tecnichal retirements and yesterday was the first time he caused a retirement (from my memory , which I admit is falible) so this adds a lot of points to LH's tally ....
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As skeeter said that would be argued forever. JB may not have caused a retirement but for instance he stopped Lewis scoring a hat full of points in Canada by not seeing him.

Those sort of stats can be argued all day long :D
 
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