Jenson v's Lewis
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Button's retirement record is very good since he's been running at the front - aside from two non-fault collisions (Grosjean rear ending him at Spa in '09, and Vettel sideswiping him at Spa in '10), he's not retired from a race through self induced means since 2008, when he spun off in the wet at Silverstone.
When racing in the midfield, he had many more collisions - which I think is an inevitability.
Hamilton crashed at Montreal and Spa in '11, crashed at Monza and Singapore in '10, Spa in '09, Canada in '08, and the infamous pit lane incident at China in '07. In fact, seventy percent of all Hamilton's career retirements have been self induced.
Aaaaaaand theres the problem with trying to include these stats. You have the Spa 09 incident that included both Button and Hamilton down as being the fault of Grosjean when counted in Buttons stats, but the fault of Hamilton when counted in Hamiltons stats.
Even if we go down the iRacing "Safety Rating" route - whereby a collision is counted as a collision, regardless of fault, JB still comes out ahead, especially if we don't look at his period running around at the back of the midfield with Honda in '07 and '08.
Ok, but do you then have to look at the number of overtakes and overtake attempts too. Vettel, for example, had no collisions last year (that I can remember), but thats not because he was great at overtaking without colliding, but was because he spent most of the time out front on his own. If Button makes 10 overtakes in a race, and collides once, yet Hamilton makes only 1 overtake and doesn't collide, who is the better driver?
Going any deeper than the simple number of DNF's is a massive can of complicated worms.
Going any deeper than the simple number of DNF's is a massive can of complicated worms.
Yes, and there's all sorts of other factors - like the increased probability of crashes further back at the start. But, for comparison (and because I'm bored), I've totted up JB's DNF stats to compare with LH. DNFs are rated as mechanical or a catchall "driver error".
LH
92 starts: 10 DNFS (10.8%) - 3 mechanical vs 7 driver error (30%/70%).
JB
210 starts: 46 DNFs (21.9%) - 28 mechanical vs 18 driver error (60%/40%)
Looking at just the McLaren partnership years, LH has retired 6 times with JB retiring 4. So using the updated JRS stats:
JB 40 starts, 4 DNF's (10% of starts), 6 wins, 509 points (avg of 12.73 per start, 14.14 per finish), 0 Poles, 5 fastest laps, 20 podiums.
LH 40 starts, 6 DNF's (15% of starts), 6 wins, 497 points (avg of 12.43 per start, 14.62 per finish), 4 Poles, 8 fastest laps, 17 podiums.
So... getting my head round that, it means LH fails to finish more, but when he does finish he finishes higher than JB (just)... I think
lol.
What it tells you more than anything though as that in terms of stats both drivers are incredibly close. I doubt any other team pairing over the same period is as close.
JB 40 starts, 4 DNF's (10% of starts), 6 wins, 509 points (avg of 12.73 per start, 14.14 per finish), 0 Poles, 5 fastest laps, 20 podiums.
LH 40 starts, 6 DNF's (15% of starts), 6 wins, 497 points (avg of 12.43 per start, 14.62 per finish), 4 Poles, 8 fastest laps, 17 podiums.
So... getting my head round that, it means LH fails to finish more, but when he does finish he finishes higher than JB (just)... I think
lol.What it tells you more than anything though as that in terms of stats both drivers are incredibly close. I doubt any other team pairing over the same period is as close.
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Soldato
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It also proves that LH has better 1 lap pace, given the poles/fastest laps, and that JB is better over 2 hours on a Sunday.
But we already knew that
But we already knew that
Yep. It does support the JB = marathon while LH = sprint theory, but I expect the actual difference in stats is a lot less than people might expect.
Them both having an overall points finish average that equates to coming 3rd in every race they finish is quite impressive too.
Them both having an overall points finish average that equates to coming 3rd in every race they finish is quite impressive too.
Agreed.
The discussion has all stemmed from the two camps of fans: those who were convinced LH would destroy JB when he moved to McLaren, and those who were optimistic JB would give a good showing, and not get steamrollered.
The former camp have spent the last 2 years trying to downplay JB's performance, and the latter have spent the last 2 years saying "See!"
Personally I'm a Button man - have been for a decade. I was extremely pleased (read: shouting at the telly) when LH won his title in 2008 and think he's a great and exciting driver, but 2009 and the circumstances surrounding the season meant it felt better for me.
I think what many people miss is that we have two Brits at the top of their games driving for a British team at the top of their game, who've built a car this year which has every chance of taking the WDC & WCC in the championship at the pinnacle of global motorsport. Not bad.
Yep, its win win all round for us Brits!
Yet I guarantee the wider audience in general will still refuse to categorise JB in that 'top drivers' tier with Vettel, Hamilton and Alonso, and instead insist he is still in that second tier with Webber and Massa. I don't expect much to change even if JB wins the WDC this year either.
Yet I guarantee the wider audience in general will still refuse to categorise JB in that 'top drivers' tier with Vettel, Hamilton and Alonso, and instead insist he is still in that second tier with Webber and Massa. I don't expect much to change even if JB wins the WDC this year either.
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I don't think thats beyond the realms of possibility with the current regulations though. McLaren would just have to give him more fuel so he can do the whole race flat out and he would be able to make up the time deficit of an extra stop.
But thats just not how its played any more. Running a 'managed' race carries much less risk and is easier on the driver.
But thats just not how its played any more. Running a 'managed' race carries much less risk and is easier on the driver.
Surely thats totally irrelevant what might have happened?
At the end of the day LH was respsonsible for his DNF in that instance, where as JB at Silverstone / Germany coudldnt have done anything about these for instance
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Agreed, but being able to quantify exactly how many is soooo not worth the arguments (again).
sorry I should have read further - my bad
As skeeter said that would be argued forever. JB may not have caused a retirement but for instance he stopped Lewis scoring a hat full of points in Canada by not seeing him.
Those sort of stats can be argued all day long
you have a point about Canada (even though JB was on the racing line, and not moving irratically too and fro), I would still suggest it massively favours JB in this regard however (I dont think the car has ever let Lewis down in the last two seasons, or seemingly so to not score any points)