Jordan Peterson thread

I think there are elements of most ideologies that are good. But the problem comes when its enacted. None of them are enacted in the pure ideological form.

Capitalism seems to always make its way to the top priority of any leader.

A lot of the extreme ideologies end up in reality doing the same things.
 
I think there are elements of most ideologies that are good. But the problem comes when its enacted. None of them are enacted in the pure ideological form.

Capitalism seems to always make its way to the top priority of any leader.

A lot of the extreme ideologies end up in reality doing the same things.

Exactly, as humans we have wants, needs, some of us are good, some of us are evil, and some if us want to be free to think and feel things that some might have issue with. Communism, if we want it to work, to truly work as intended we'd have to eject out emotions and feelings like some valcun race, advocates just don't see it or deliberately avoid thinking about that uncomfortable truth. They think if we achieve Communism we'd live in some rainbow coloured Star Trek utopia, where's in reality you'd just end up like Russia in the 80's
 
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Exactly, as humans we have wants, needs, some of us are good, some of us are evil, and some if us want to be free to think and feel things that some might have issue with. Communism, if we want it to work, to truly work as intended we'd have to eject out emotions and feelings like some valcun race, advocates just don't see it or deliberately avoid thinking about that uncomfortable truth. They think if we achieve Communism we'd live in some rainbow coloured Star Trek utopia, where's in reality you'd just end up like Russia in the 80's
I remember years ago I heard the saying about politics, those we want in power never stand, while those we don't are always putting themselves forward.

Good people tend not to put themselves forward.
 
I remember years ago I heard the saying about politics, those we want in power never stand, while those we don't are always putting themselves forward.

Good people tend not to put themselves forward.

Personally, I think the problem is that decent MPs (and there are some!) tend to get pushed aside during the fighting for the senior leadership.

My local MP was scathing about party leadership when I spoke with him.
 
Personally, I think the problem is that decent MPs (and there are some!) tend to get pushed aside during the fighting for the senior leadership.

My local MP was scathing about party leadership when I spoke with him.
The problem is the upper powers are always an 'old boys club' (even if a few women are involved).

All these political ideologies, Communism, Nationalism, Globalism, they all come through the same political party structure.

If you don't want to be part of the social group then you won't be invited in to higher positions.

If you've been involved in a political party say, for example, 10 years and you've made lots of friends, especially in your local branch that selected you, then you are peer pressured in to going with the flow. If you don't then you'll lose most, if not all, the friends you've made in that 10 years. So I think thats why current MP's prefer to just retire for their own peace of mind. But the corruption in the party carries on.

I think in a way this is why when big moves happen its usually by someone who has a big ego. In the UK in my life time the 3 names that come in to my mind are Thatcher, Blair, and Boris. All the other PM's have just gone with the flow.
 
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Exactly, as humans we have wants, needs, some of us are good, some of us are evil, and some if us want to be free to think and feel things that some might have issue with. Communism, if we want it to work, to truly work as intended we'd have to eject out emotions and feelings like some valcun race, advocates just don't see it or deliberately avoid thinking about that uncomfortable truth. They think if we achieve Communism we'd live in some rainbow coloured Star Trek utopia, where's in reality you'd just end up like Russia in the 80's

Communism is a stupid way to run things, but then so is unregulated capitalism.

In reality, we need a heavily regulated form of capitalism alongside parts of communism/socialism.

Everyone gets so stuck on thinking they have to stick to these narrow ideologies, when we absolutely need to take the best parts of all of them and find a way for them to work together,
 
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The problem is the upper powers are always an 'old boys club' (even if a few women are involved).

All these political ideologies, Communism, Nationalism, Globalism, they all come through the same political party structure.

If you don't want to be part of the social group then you won't be invited in to higher positions.

If you've been involved in a political party say, for example, 10 years and you've made lots of friends, especially in your local branch that selected you, then you are peer pressured in to going with the flow. If you don't then you'll lose most, if not all, the friends you've made in that 10 years. So I think thats why current MP's prefer to just retire for their own peace of mind. But the corruption in the party carries on.

I think in a way this is why when big moves happen its usually by someone who has a big ego. In the UK in my life time the 3 names that come in to my mind are Thatcher, Blair, and Boris.

My local Councillor keeps trying to get me to stand for the council. I just can't be bothered, given past experience with the ruling group.

The big problem where I live is inertia- so many vote for party X as "my dad would turn in his grave if I switched", which is the worst possible reason. Party X could have an eating babies policy and people would still vote for them.

There is literally no point in standing for Party Y or Z, as they will never, ever win locally.

I'm amazed the post box hasn't accidentally been elected, based on its colour, to be honest.
 
One of the biggest problems with Communism (or any dogma-based society) is, what do you do with those people who don’t subscribe to your ideology?

You either have to change their mind (very difficult), deport them, lock them up, or worse. This is why Communism can work on a small scale (literally a commune) but never works beyond a handful of people. It's also part of what makes Communism fundamentally authoritarian.

Western democratic capitalism seems to have something of an innate immunity to this issue. If you don't agree with the framework, you can choose not to be involved without becoming an existential threat to the whole system; although I suppose that's partly because the vast majority do play along.

The Gulag Archipelago is a great warning against authoritarianism in general, and yes, I have read it.* Whether it's Communism, Fascism, National Socialism, Catholic Orthodoxy in 15th Century Spain, Revolutionary Jacobins, The Islamic Republic of Iran, or Pinochet's Chile — too much concentrated power is a dangerous thing.

*Technically, I listened to the three-volume unabridged audiobook, narrated by Solzhenitsyn's son (with a foreword by JBP), which I can highly recommend.

The issue I have with people like JBP (and certain members of this forum) is when they cry "socialism" or "socialist" at people, groups, or policies that they don't like, and try to equate them with the very worst instances of Communism in practice. Yes, when taken too far, socialism (like most things) is terrible, you'll get no argument from me there. But someone like Bernie Sanders (or even Jeremy Corbyn) isn't advocating for Stalin-Leninism. Their ideas might share some roots (and there are plenty of grounds to criticize them honestly) but it's disingenuous to equate them to Pol Pot. The Communist Manifesto actually has a whole section on how Communism differs from other branches of Socialism — so while all Communists are Socialists, not all Socialists are Communists.

Greta Thunberg's recent anti-capitalist rant is a good case in point. She makes some valid points about Capitalism facilitating the exploitation of people and the environment over the last few hundred years, and I agree with her that economic growth shouldn't be our only priority. But she ignores the benefits that Capitalism has bestowed on the human race in that time. She also explicitly states that she isn't advocating for a return to "Socialism, Liberalism, Communism, Conservatism, Centrism, you name it", but that doesn't stop certain people from claiming she's a dyed-in-the-wool Marxist.
 
Communism is a stupid way to run things, but then so is unregulated capitalism.

In reality, we need a heavily regulated form of capitalism alongside parts of communism/socialism.

Everyone gets so stuck on thinking they have to stick to these narrow ideologies, when we absolutely need to take the best parts of all of them and find a way for them to work together,
This is pretty much it.

If you allow unrestricted capitalism you end up with people dying/being killed because doing anything to prevent it costs money or means you can't make as much money, a lot of people forget that the most basic food regulations we have came about due to people willing to see people die in order to maximise profits (putting potential poisons in food*), or these days the rules about handling food to prevent the spread of easily preventable diseases.
Or that having 6 years olds running under/between dangerous machine was a thing because they were small enough they could clear blockages without stopping production, and if you had some maimed or killed it wasn't really an issue as they were easily replaced and obviously not that good if they were clumsy enough to get caught in the machinery.

The idea of public schools and roads is "communism" according to some of the more stupid people, but it's also something that is utterly vital for capitalism as you need to be able to move your goods around and have an educated work force and it's far cheaper to pool that cost in some way (say by having the government do it) than to do it as a company.


*IIRC things like jam where they used bits of wood as pips as a fairly benign example.
 
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The idea of public schools and roads is "communism" according to some of the more stupid people, but it's also something that is utterly vital for capitalism as you need to be able to move your goods around and have an educated work force and it's far cheaper to pool that cost in some way (say by having the government do it) than to do it as a company.

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Absolutely.

Costs of some items are socialised which benefits business.

Major infrastructure, ports, roads etc is one example.

Working families tax credits is another. The taxpayer subsidies companies to offer jobs that, otherwise, would probably attract fewer, if any, applicants.
 

Best podcast he’s had in a while (not sure about the Twitter suit drip though). Vervaeke’s own YouTube series is immense although I still only understand about half of it and his new one has just started to drop.
 
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The problem is that the people who are good at getting elected are not the people who are likely to actually be good at the job. When the job requires a completely different skillset from "the interview" then you don't get good outcomes.
 

Best podcast he’s had in a while (not sure about the Twitter suit drip though). Vervaeke’s own YouTube series is immense although I still only understand about half of it and his new one has just started to drop.

I fully expected to dislike this but it's an interesting watch if you can get past JP dressed as blue Santa and the editor, clearly tripping balls, jump cutting every 5 milliseconds. John Verveake also sounds like Brett Easton Ellis if that's your thing (it is).
 
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How did I miss this over the weekend. Jordan Peterson tweeting a fetish porn clip thinking its a man seed milking factory in China run by the government. He needs a mental health intervention again. And to think people follow this guys advice :cry: :cry:

It's impossible to parody this man, he has already become a parody of himself.
 
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It's impossible to parody this man, he has already become a parody of himself.

I used to like him, then you realise while he does know stuff about psychology... it's what he trained in after all... you simply can't apply that knowledge to other areas like climate change.

The irony is that by trying to apply his intelligence to areas outside his expertise he has made himself even more unbelieveable in areas where he is knowledgeable.
 
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