Josep Guardiola: is he actually a good manager?
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Soldato
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i'll place sarah jessica parker on a mountain
Soldato
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Double post
Caporegime
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Did Rijkaard throw away titles, not really, Messi was only just becoming great and Ronnie was a party guy, nothing more or less. Likewise Real Madrid have good and bad years, they were a very good team while Ronnie was off the boil. Messi hasn't had a bad season, infact hasn't had anything less than an epic season under Guardiola, would they have won titles had he not scored basically 50 goals, quite probably not. Real were stupidly close 2 seasons ago, further behind(but still marginal) last season, and ahead this season.
He's made big mistakes, he played around with 3 at the back(with 1 truly calamitous CB involved) and it cost the points basically every time.
Just about any manager would have a hard time not doing incredibly well with that Barca squad.
The style of football, the general feel of the team, the establishing of the spine of the team happened long before Guardiola took over, Xavi, Puyol, Valdes, Eto'o, and the way they played football was something Guardiola inherited, as was Messi.
He's potentially a world class manager, but who knows what he can do with a worse team. What would have happened had Messi not emerged as basically the worlds best player that season.
Don't forget, he actually spent big money on Hleb, and the less said about the Eto'o deal the better. If I remember correctly he also said Eto'o, Ronnie and a couple others had no future at Barca when he took over, then proceeded to rely on Eto'o's goals all season.
He's made big mistakes, he played around with 3 at the back(with 1 truly calamitous CB involved) and it cost the points basically every time.
Just about any manager would have a hard time not doing incredibly well with that Barca squad.
The style of football, the general feel of the team, the establishing of the spine of the team happened long before Guardiola took over, Xavi, Puyol, Valdes, Eto'o, and the way they played football was something Guardiola inherited, as was Messi.
He's potentially a world class manager, but who knows what he can do with a worse team. What would have happened had Messi not emerged as basically the worlds best player that season.
Don't forget, he actually spent big money on Hleb, and the less said about the Eto'o deal the better. If I remember correctly he also said Eto'o, Ronnie and a couple others had no future at Barca when he took over, then proceeded to rely on Eto'o's goals all season.
Soldato
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Two la liga titles if i recal correctly, simalar to whats happening to real atm.
Rijkaard's side were hardly recognisable to this Barca side outside of the names on the shirts. Guardiola created a new way of playing and has kept the consistency up for years which is unheard of at the very top.
Messi was injured that season where they got to the CL final, it's not that he wasn't very good
To be honest, I'm finding all these United fans denigrating Barca and Guardiola just .. very funny, though not a surprise.
Rooney > Guardiola
Guardiola has kept them at the top for years? He's been in charge 3 years so far this is his forth and in that time have they retained the Champions League something no other club side have ever done? Are they currently on course for a 4th straight league title? You make it sound like he's done something no other club has ever done which is far far far from the case.
This current Barcelona are the best club side the world has ever seen and yet under Guardiola's reign they've been in the same amount of UCL finals as we have. I fail to see where Guardiola as a manager has done anything record breaking?
I remember Rijkaard's Barcelona side, I remember them playing Real Madrid away from home winning 3-0 and Ronaldinho getting a standing ovation from the home supporters something that was unheard of at the time. Rijkaard's Barcelona were a great side and started what we see today.
2 things:
1 - Pep is perfect for Barca, elsewhere he will probably get found out... not just because he wont have Messi, but Barca is a system, Pep is a part of that system and knows how to bring the best out of it.
2 - No other coach would do as well as him there anyway, bar maybe someone like Luis Enrique but he seems a bit renegade at Roma/another Barca'.... give Mourinho or Fergie or Mancini, whoever people think are good coaches the Barca job and watch them fall on their behind. Imo the last person to really get Barca as a coach was Bobby Robson, even though he didnt win La Liga, his team was awesome to watch (in no small part due to Ronaldo) but they were great and were just outdone by Capello's Italian style Real.
1 - Pep is perfect for Barca, elsewhere he will probably get found out... not just because he wont have Messi, but Barca is a system, Pep is a part of that system and knows how to bring the best out of it.
2 - No other coach would do as well as him there anyway, bar maybe someone like Luis Enrique but he seems a bit renegade at Roma/another Barca'.... give Mourinho or Fergie or Mancini, whoever people think are good coaches the Barca job and watch them fall on their behind. Imo the last person to really get Barca as a coach was Bobby Robson, even though he didnt win La Liga, his team was awesome to watch (in no small part due to Ronaldo) but they were great and were just outdone by Capello's Italian style Real.
Soldato
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6 trophies in 1 calendar year is a nice record to have.
You mention that under guardiola barca have reach the same number of ucl final as utd. You fail to mention that he has won both finals he's reach.
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Fergie ~building teams~ by lucking out and getting amazing players through the youth system, for free... or spending massive sums on a load of players.
This is a pretty stupid thing to say. To get amazing players through the youth system you have to scout them and then produce them, it's hardly luck is it? Obviously Sir Alex can't take all the credit for this, but the club as a whole (youth set up/coaches/scouts) should. Secondly buying amazing players doesn't necessarily build a successful team. I could list and endless amount of big money signings that have been complete flops, for both United and other teams. Sir Alex has done a great job of building new teams. He's cleared out the deadwood and brought in a lot of players who have gone on to be very successful.
That's because it's totally irrelevant
Say Man Utd reached 2 UCL finals in 3 years and played Arsenal both times would Fergies achievement of getting United there be any greater than Wengers? And would Man Utd winning those two finals with having the better side be all that surprising? Of course it wouldn't.
Rijkaard had his moments, mainly domestically because Real were in transition... ill try to dig it out but they were coming off the Galacticos era and had players sign for like half a season before being bombed on.
Rijkaards best moment/team 2005/6 Champions League Final
Valdes
Marquez - gone
Puyol
Guily - gone
Etoo - gone (but a big part of Peps 1st season iirc)
Ronaldinho - gone
Gio VB - gone
Edmilson - gone
Mark Van Bommel - gone
Deco - gone
Oleguer - gone
2 of those players have survived, he has to nurse Puyol due to his age. 2 of the subs were Xavi dnp and Iniesta played 2nd half. So really Pep and the Barca staff have overhauled a Champions League winning team from 2006 and within 5 years of that, won another 2 and are still in this years.
I mean Rijkaard won the league twice in 5 seasons and the Chumps once. Plus a couple of pieces of tin as Drunkenmaster calls them.
Pep, has won the league 3 times in 3 seasons and still have a shot this year. Won the Chumps twice in 3 years, still in this year and made the Semis in the only year they didnt win it. Won the Spanish Cup once as part of a 'treble' and has won what, 7 bits of tin alongside that.
Thats 13 trophies in 3 and a half seasons, with 3 still to play for ie League, Chumps Quarters and Spanish Cup Final. It aint bad and to say anyone could do it, is a long shot... but as I say, elsewhere, nope, he might have a year or something good, but he will bomb.
tbf when aren't Real Madrid in transition? The rate they change their managers I'd say it's no surprise that no sooner do they keep a manager in charge for longer than 15 months are they finally starting to look a threat on the European stage again (how many years on the trot pre Mourinho did Lyon knock them out of Europe for example?)
Caporegime
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Fergie got lucky buying VDS, Ferdinand, Vidic, Evra, Ronaldo, Carrick, Rooney etc etc?
Oh and on the last point the fact that we play Evans and Welbeck has nothing to do with levels of ambition it simply shows that Enlgish clubs can't attract the same level of players that the Spanish sides can nor do we produce the same level of home grown players, don't like that? Go follow one of those Spanish sides instead, you'll be doing us all a massive favour
it hardly takes a genius to buy the best defender for 30 million or the best prospect since Gazza. Nor after a string of keepers to finally buy van Der sar 5 years too late?
our home grown or even the players we buy are limited in ability. i.e they can pass or tackle or have ball control but only ever 2 out of 3 fletcher for instance can only do one. which works against other equally inept teams but clearly you throw them against a team like bilbao whos players can all at least run, pass and control the ball.
Phil Jones is a good example. physically strong. he can run maybe tackle but he has no control or passing ability like bilbao could do.
yes he's young so it might be unfair but the point still stands. its the same with fletcher, park, carrick to an extent.
Caporegime
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Nick try and stay on topic, this is not a thread about Fergie. If you want to talk about that start a thread for it.
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me im just replying to toms post surely his was off topic too?
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i think the relevance comes from guard being compared to fergie and the difference is pep buys and plays players with all round ability whereas fergie buys and packs the teams with spare parts and it can work in the grind house of the premiership against stoke city but when you play against a team who'smanager insists on quality throughout you tend to see results like utd vs barca...
