Just been told I am losing 5% of my salary...

[NVP]

yes, worldwide company

newer contracts are a bit worse, think they are 20% for 1 in 3 and 15% for 1 in 4

been to the Santander Leicester site (Carlton Pk) loads of times

No way, I was based there for 4 years constant, but it was my closest HQ so I was there a few times a month for the last ten years. I'm guessing you were mainly in the data centre (old and new?), new one is niiiiiice


Re: on call and being out - I had unlimited tethering and an inverter in my car. Generally just jump in the car and sort it where ever I am, whatever country, but also pulled the lappy out in pubs, restaurants, anywhere it's doable really.

 

[tom_e]

Obviously you cannot do certain things but if I was in ikea I'd just leave go to the car and do it from there.

Basically don't enter into something you cannot leave within 5 minutes.

So don't go mountain biking or swimming but going to the shops is fine.

You've never been on call have you?

If you hit a complex issue you don't want to be sat with your laptop in your car hoping your mobile signal is going to hold out for an hour+.

 

[Psycho Sonny]

You've never been on call have you?

If you hit a complex issue you don't want to be sat with your laptop in your car hoping your mobile signal is going to hold out for an hour+.

Do you not have leeway where you can then go to a cafe or home within 15 mins and then do it?

Or does it have to be resolved right now with no leeway for getting yourself ready.

 

[Rotty]

No way, I was based there for 4 years constant, but it was my closest HQ so I was there a few times a month for the last ten years. I'm guessing you were mainly in the data centre (old and new?), new one is niiiiiice


.

yes, working in the data halls, usually out of business hours

 

[dowie]

Do you not have leeway where you can then go to a cafe or home within 15 mins and then do it?

Or does it have to be resolved right now with no leeway for getting yourself ready.

Depends on the role I guess. For some support bods they’d be expected to react pretty quickly. Like client calls, they answer within a few rings, if the issue is high priority then they immediately log in and take a look with the client still on the phone. That perhaps allows for sitting in the garden etc.. at best.

 

[Psycho Sonny]

Depends on the role I guess. For some support bods they’d be expected to react pretty quickly. Like client calls, they answer within a few rings, if the issue is high priority then they immediately log in and take a look with the client still on the phone. That perhaps allows for sitting in the garden etc.. at best.

Obviously if I was paying you then I wouldn't be expecting you take an hour to get ready to work.

But I would have thought 15 mins or so would be amenable. It will depend on case by case basis. But I have taken my laptop to a birthday party as an example. Locked myself away in a room for 2 hours. Then had a lunch break with everyone as food was being served. Then went back to finish off for the day and then back to the party after I've finished work.

 

[wesimmo]

Obviously if I was paying you then I wouldn't be expecting you take an hour to get ready to work.

But I would have thought 15 mins or so would be amenable. It will depend on case by case basis. But I have taken my laptop to a birthday party as an example. Locked myself away in a room for 2 hours. Then had a lunch break with everyone as food was being served. Then went back to finish off for the day and then back to the party after I've finished work.

Why are you talking about things you have no knowledge of?

If my IVR went down and I had to wait 15 minutes for someone to finish their meatballs and trek across Ikea's car park before logging on over a mobile connection I'd go mental.

 

[Haggisman]

Why are you talking about things you have no knowledge of?

If my IVR went down and I had to wait 15 minutes for someone to finish their meatballs and trek across Ikea's car park before logging on over a mobile connection I'd go mental.

How does this work for things like... Sleep?

If you called someone at 3am you'd expect them to be awake and alert and ready to work within a couple of minutes without any allowances for things like waking up, getting dressed, turning on the computer, having a poo?

 

[dowie]

Obviously if I was paying you then I wouldn't be expecting you take an hour to get ready to work.

But I would have thought 15 mins or so would be amenable. It will depend on case by case basis. But I have taken my laptop to a birthday party as an example. Locked myself away in a room for 2 hours. Then had a lunch break with everyone as food was being served. Then went back to finish off for the day and then back to the party after I've finished work.

15 minutes could easily be way too long in some cases.

 

[wesimmo]

How does this work for things like... Sleep?

If you called someone at 3am you'd expect them to be awake and alert and ready to work within a couple of minutes without any allowances for things like waking up, getting dressed, turning on the computer, having a poo?

There's a difference between reasonable expectations of a human being and expecting them to be restricted in what they do by virtue of being paid to do that.

 

[dowie]

How does this work for things like... Sleep?

If you called someone at 3am you'd expect them to be awake and alert and ready to work within a couple of minutes without any allowances for things like waking up, getting dressed, turning on the computer, having a poo?

Potentially yes, just get up and deal with it.

Generally at the place I worked where this was a possible issue then the support bods would have 24/7 coverage in office during the week, possibly a manager or more experienced guy called at home. If one of the Devs or BAs were called then they’re generally being asked for advice or might have to get up and log in but they’re not dealing with the client. Also Devs didn’t get on call allowance - don’t want to be woken up so often at 3am? Don’t write **** code.

On a weekend though with no one in the office then the person the client talks to first is a support bod at home and they’d best answer the phone and respond immediately. Arguably you only need to throw on a dressing gown and if you know you’re on call then the computers (multiple in some cases) should be set up and ready to go.

 

[Kenai]

I suppose people's expectations will differ by industry role too - where I am, in my team, being 'on call' effectively means being available to visit site at a few hours notice, so all it prevents you doing is getting on the booze or going away. Others at the company are on a higher priority where they'd be expected to be on site within an hour of being called, their deal is different to ours and affects them differently.

If you're on call for an international bank that'll collapse and lose millions if something's offline for 5 minutes, you're going to be on a different rate to someone who is 'on call' for a small webstore that just needs its site back up by the next working day or something, or providing phone only support for basic troubleshooting.

 

[Ayahuasca]

The reason on-call rates are so high at some places is due to the fact that you're expected to drop everything and get to work as soon as you get the call. What's the point in paying you to be on call if it's going to take you 15-30 mins to gather your thoughts, have a shower and eat some toast before you can get to resolving a potentially critical issue?

Perfect for the types who spend their weekends at home watching football in front of the TV. Not so good if you want to be out and about.

 

[BongoHunter]

If something is so business critical that you need to have detected it, then called out someone, who then needs to get online, and then actually fix the issue all within 15 mins - then I don't think oncall is appropriate for it and you want a help desk or someone actually on site 24/7 surely.

 

[Ayahuasca]

We’re not talking about resolving it within 15 minutes. Just making a start and not looking around for a Wi-Fi hotspot or location with a strong 4G signal so you can tether.

If you’re on call you should be prepared to work on something as best you can. Not having a day out with the kids and praying a complex call doesn’t come in or that your phone signal will hold up.

Many businesses can't afford someone on-site 24/7 or they follow the pattern of going completely barebones on their IT staff and equipment. These same businesses then cry about issues that either wouldn't have happened or would have been easily resolved without cost-cutting to the extreme.

 

[BongoHunter]

We’re not talking about resolving it within 15 minutes. Just making a start and not looking around for a Wi-Fi hotspot or location with a strong 4G signal so you can tether.

If you’re on call you should be prepared to work on something as best you can. Not having a day out with the kids and praying a complex call doesn’t come in or that your phone signal will hold up.

Fair enough if the standby pay is reasonable and the rota is sane.

But at my place for example: call-out allowance is £2k extra per year in my team, and the first 30 mins of any actual call-out is unpaid, rota is 1 week in 3. Deals like that are pretty common and too rubbish to convince someone to be immediately available at all times for weeks they are on rota - when are you meant to do the weekly shop or have a meal out, or pick the kids up?

 

[wesimmo]

If something is so business critical that you need to have detected it, then called out someone, who then needs to get online, and then actually fix the issue all within 15 mins - then I don't think oncall is appropriate for it and you want a help desk or someone actually on site 24/7 surely.

Yep, but things like call centres where you'd think it'd be critical, the service is cut to the bone by virtue of it being a race to the bottom on price for providing a service.

 

[Richard_16v]

I had spent ~15 years on-call varying from Mon-Fri 6am-10pm all the way to 24x7 (The companies where they should really have 24x7 full IT shift cover but decide to cheap out and get that cover by paying some poor sod £200 + OT a week to provide that cover for the ~128 hours outside core business hours)

For people saying things like £0.60 an hour for nothing is ok, my guess is they have never done on-call (or spend their entire lives sat playing computer anyway)!

I am a long way off being wealthy, but given the option I would always turn down on-call - 24x7 on-call can literally take over your life, still to this day when I hear the default ringtone of an IPhone my heart skips a beat! Lost sleep, days out with kids cancelled/ruined, special family dinners/birthdays interrupted, not being able to have a drink Xmas/NYE etc.

I'm glad i've now moved out of support and no-longer do on-call, even the on-call where i had maybe 1 call a week on average I don't miss.

 

[dowie]

Yep, but things like call centres where you'd think it'd be critical, the service is cut to the bone by virtue of it being a race to the bottom on price for providing a service.

Totally depends on the clients/industry - or even specific part of any particular industry. If some trading software has gone down then you'd probably want it fixed very quickly and you're not going to be too happy speaking to a call centre either, you just want to pick up the phone and immediately speak to someone who knows what they're doing.

Ergo there are "1st line support" people who've been "1st line support" for over a decade and in some cases (certainly for the team leaders) earn circa 100k with on call, shift payments thrown in etc...

This does confuse people who think of 1st line as being a particular (often low end) skill set so such a position might not be described as such externally when recruiting but the description generally makes it clear and internally it is the 1st line or front line team as functionally that's what they are even if some are rather experienced and have a good skillset.

 

[Haggisman]

Potentially yes, just get up and deal with it.

Generally at the place I worked where this was a possible issue then the support bods would have 24/7 coverage in office during the week, possibly a manager or more experienced guy called at home. If one of the Devs or BAs were called then they’re generally being asked for advice or might have to get up and log in but they’re not dealing with the client. Also Devs didn’t get on call allowance - don’t want to be woken up so often at 3am? Don’t write **** code.

On a weekend though with no one in the office then the person the client talks to first is a support bod at home and they’d best answer the phone and respond immediately. Arguably you only need to throw on a dressing gown and if you know you’re on call then the computers (multiple in some cases) should be set up and ready to go.

Fair enough, I guess as others have posted it depends entirely on the business and the criticality of what you're supporting. For us it's paid at 25%, and while we're supposed to answer the phone/message etc. immediately, the expectation is that we're online and ready to work within 15 mins. It's not a regular thing though, and only really done ad hoc when we have something big happening like a new customer go live etc.