Just dropped a deposit on some M Power - Trackday Project Car

[Gibbo]

Who told you 8% more torque everywhere? You do know what a gearbox does so this surprises me

Common sense. Torque at the wheels improves:
Changing the gear ratio in the final drive does two things. It changes engine speed relative to ground speed, and it changes the available torque at the drive wheels relative to engine torque. For achieving maximum accelleration you need the highest torque a the drive wheels, to which end you would want to increase the final drive ratio. But the magic red line on the tachometer (wherever you chose to paint it) dictates the highest speed allowable for the engine. The trick then is to use the highest gear ratio possible while not allowing the engine to run past red line at the fastest point on the race track. So on a short track where the car will not be moving so fast, it is advantageous to use a higher ratio final drive for improved accelleration. But for a longer track, especially with longer straightaways, the final drive ratio must be lowered enough to prevent over reving of the engine. To wit, it is common to swap out the final drive gearing between race dates.

http://www.rubydist.com/Family/Power.html


How I miss understood, I've being in M3's with higher final ratio like I'm going for and acceleration is improved as explained above.

 

[Gibbo]

10kg from snipping the carpet? is carpet really that heavy?

Yes the carpet under the front seats is very thick, circa 10-15kg due to all the insulation.

 

[Gibbo]

You will like the shorter final gear. My Silvia has a 4.1 gear which is standard for 5sp JDM models. I've since spent some time in UK spec 200sx with 3.7 gear and the acceleration is notably duller. Most people swap to the 3.9 auto diffs but I don't know why when the 4.1 isn't stupid at all.

Yeah looking forward to it as the stock 3.62 final ratio makes the gears too long, did want a 4.10 but at half the price the 3.91 will do.

 

[Gibbo]

Fully aware of what a torque multiplier is. Sorry I mean a gear.

I'm not sure why you have starting using torque as wheel torque. 8% everywhere is impossible to state as fact- some speeds now require 3rd rather than 2nd so you will have less wheel torque.

Fitting smaller wheels doesn't increase 'torque'

I could claim massive torque by just driving around in reverse everywhere

Just repeating what everyone says about gears online, see your point as well mate. Guess just have to wait and see, might get them installed this month, if not next as in no rush with all this nasty cold weather.

 

[Gibbo]

I'm guessing you are probably now.in the region of expenditure where you could have probably just got a CSL...

No where near.
With car I've spent about 15-18k, CSL's are 30-40k and then I'd still need to buy big brake kit, coilovers, boot floor re-inforcement, differential, remapping amongst other things, so I'd be way over 40k with a CSL.

Car is more powerful, lighter and more focused than a CSL, just does not look as nice inside or out as one.

 

[Gibbo]

Hi there

Had the secondary cold air intake uncapped today so now the air box has both cold air intakes functioning for maximum cold ram air effect.

 

[Gibbo]

Oh I'm aware he's had one. I hear about its magical capabilities on a regular basis.

I just get the feeling that a bottom of the market CSL would have been a good place to start rather than spending thousands of pounds making a regular M3 into a CSL replica.

Bottom of the market CSL's at the time were 25k plus and I think the one at the time which was 25k was either written off or starship miles, all others at the time were closer to 30k and are now over 30k.

I paid £6900, the the car has had bit by bit added as highly recommended items came up at the right cost, with the blinder being Alcon CSL cup brakes at under 3k for the full set, something that sells for 7k new and I'd also be needing if I got a CSL.

A CSL replica, when have I stated I am building a CSL replica and how is it remotely close to one? It seems clear that most can see I am building a very sorted road and track car, to achieve that it will have some elements of the CSL but a replica it will not be as many of the CSL components simply are not good enough. I am building the car I want which is not a replica of anything.

A replica would have badges, be a CSL colour, in short be a copy that no one would be able to tell it is not, CSL's were never made in blue, kind of gives it away.

Magic abilities, such as?

 

[Gibbo]

The CSL bumper, bootlid, airbox, ECU, wheels, brakes...

There was a point in time where all you talked about is how nothing would beat a csl through craners and how its track capabilities are unrivalled.

I can understand that making a track car is something you dont just go and do to a mint example and I am by no means slating what you've done because I know that its a riot to drive.

What I'm getting at is that you originally started out with a cheap track day project to keep the track abuse off the 911 saving on the cost of associated bills and remove the fear factor of having any nasty offs in an expensive motor, and now its turned into an expensive motor too.

You said replica it's not I was informing you of what a replica is, my M3 clearly is not, using some of the components does not make a car a replica, thought you would know that.
Also as you seem confused my car does not have CSL brakes or wheels.

I've never said it's track abilities are unrivalled, don't put words into my mouth Rich, what I've said is a good driver on cups/slicks will get an M3/CSL through craners at 120mph plus, this does not make it unrivalled as I've being in cars doing 130 plus through craners which were not a BMW. So why you feel the need to make up stories on an internet forum I am unsure. So maybe it is you who thinks such speeds are unrivalled through craners but I've being through there as a passenger in none BMW cars going faster. How does one corner on a track make a car an unrivalled track car too?

Yes it's become expensive but facts are the 911 is still worth double in re-sale value and if something broke, the cost to repair on the M3 would be less, for example:
Brake disc: M3 1k / 911 5k
Engine: M3 3k / 911 10k
Gearbox: M3 1k / 911 5k


A major failure on the 911 would cost several times more to put right and the 911 is a good looking clean car in excellent condition and I wish to keep it that way, the M3 on the hand does not have the best paint work and is not in anywhere near the same condition. At 7k it was ok on track but the 911 was better, now at 15k area it's a great track car which is pretty good on the road though not 911 good.

 

[Gibbo]

It must be a nightmare working with Gibbo lol.

Yes.
Rich have you purchased those Ohlins yet?

 

[Gibbo]

Hi there

A subtle styling mod, added a bit more carbon fibre:

For those not keeping upto date it is just the side trims, the other bits were already carbon fibre.

Left to do is the bonnet vent, but I hate the ones you can buy as are a different style and look naff, so shall get the OEM piece dipped. That then just leaves the expensive one, carbon fibre roof which of course also has benefit too but at £1000 that can either never happen or wait a long time.

 

[Gibbo]

Gibbo those side trims look awful What was wrong with the bodycolour ones?

Nothing, but I prefer the carbon ones and as its got the carbon shark fins and carbon front splitters gone for that kind of look.

 

[Gibbo]

I can't help but think everything in this thread is very egotistical, every update post. Maybe it's just your typing style.

Its a build thread on an old M3, its not a thread saying hey look at my massive garage with my Ferrari, Porsche, Veyron and Eleanor in it......

Though by the way if anyone does have a car garage like the above then yes please post pictures, it is motors and most of us here want to see others peoples rides to comment good/bad on them.

 

[Gibbo]

It's a motoring discussion forum, he's bagged an M3 and gone nuts with it, good on him and post more updates mate!

Look at it this way ace, at least it's not me posting truck pics!!

No idea what his beef is, I love build threads on cars, I've got many of my ideas from reading other peoples M3 build threads.

Yep I try to post every update, simply so I have a log of them otherwise I'd have no remembering everything I've done to the car.

Getting a base dyno tomorrow and hopefully doing CSL ECU conversion next week so I'll organise a proper RR day for March.

That simply then leaves:
Diff rebuild with polished 3.91 gears, cannot wait as everyone is telling me how great they are for acceleration.
Rear cage install, will probably weld it in too due to advice from others here and people in the know to give more structure strengthening.

That is it, enjoy it then on road and lots of track days through Summer, then later or next year do the carbon roof and maybe full respray into a silly colour if the paint gets to marked/chipped/scratched from track work.

 

[Gibbo]

The trims are pieces of plastic though, they weigh grams, not going to make a bit of difference to power to weight

They weigh no less, did it because I like the carbons.

 

[Gibbo]

Made best power today will post up graph later.

 

[Gibbo]

Mate is selling an E92 M3 race car he has just built and never raced. Very high quality build and going for a steal mate....

More info please buddy, not gonna buy it, but be good to know more about the car.

One thing, why build it but then never actually find out what his creation could do?

 

[Gibbo]

Right EGO Mode activated!

Guys check me out yo! Car nearly made 400BHP, my E-peen and EGO are through the roof, I might move to Florida as well and post regular to inform you about this.


Anyway, as planned took the car to Powerstation today to get a run to see what if any difference de-cats had made, first run below had some initial wheelspin but the power result and torque nothing short of fantastic:

We then did a second run, reduced dyno load, helps prevent wheelspin and it worked, got a little less power as the ECU pulled some ignition as things were getting hotter, but still a great result.

The below is a comparison of the Milltek 100 cel VS de-cat, it is clearly evident the de-cats give gains everywhere, a good 10 horsepower or so and as such are definitely worth while if you don't mind the odd smell and are happy to throw stock cats back on for MOT purposes.

Am absolutely over the moon with how well the car is running, I've gained nearly 60BHP with the modifications I have done which is nothing short of amazing on an NA engine. Lets hope the CSL ECU with Frank Smiths TTFS tune is as good as the Evolve one or even if possible better, fingers crossed!

 

[Gibbo]

That is some impressive gains Gibbo. I have not read much of this thread so apologies as I am sure you have mentioned what mods you have done, have you put in new cams and done other internal engine work to get more power?

Will the CSL ECU add more drivability and response and not more power?

Mods are listed on the dyno sheet.

No engine work, no cams, just very well maintained, right oil, right level and only ever Shell Vpower.

Yes CSL ECU is for drivability and adaptability, it won't pull timing anywhere near as aggressive as the stock ECU does and will be a much smoother drive due to utilising a map sensor for lower rpm's.

 

[Gibbo]

Ah, I should have gone to Specsavers!

That is epic gains from a naturally aspirated engine with bolt-on modifications. I bet she is fun to hoon around in! A proper little track weapon you have built. Good job!

Yep, the acceleration is rather mind blowing, quicker than the 911 for sure, I love just cruising at say 75mph with box in auto S5 mode, floor it let it drop/blip down to 3rd and it just pins you and acceleration is relentless.

The dyno history is this:

When purchased: BMC panel filter, Scorpion catback exhaust, Milltek 100 cel cats: 336BHP
With Evolve remap added: 367BHP
CSL Exhaust fitted: 379BHP
CSL Air box & UD pulleys: 364BHP, ECU pulled ignition as car was hot.
Took it to Evolve to check OK: 370BHP on their dyno which is always less than Powerstations.
Today with de-cats at Powerstation: 393BHP first run, 385BHP second as ECU pulling ignition.


With the CSL in I do not expect to make more peak power but the ECU will resist pulling ignition as easy meaning I make all my power a lot more and the map sensor makes drivability far improved in lower RPM range.

Plus the ECU pulls ignition so quick on Powerstations dyno because their cooling fan simulates 60mph, the problem is as they dyno in 5th my car is hitting 170mph on the dyno, hence things getting hot and the ECU started to pull/retard ignition.

 

[Gibbo]

Is the S54 strangled stock?

60BHP from just exhaust and intake bolt ons is a lot! As someone who has dabbled in N/A tuning before that is almost a 20% increase over stock.

Nearly all of the gain comes from the remap, which is because BMW clearly left a lot on the table in the ECU tune. Makes sense considering the CSL came along.

S54's with aggressive cams, vanos delete and Motec ECU, make in the 430-440BHP region.