Lan noise reducer

As counter-intuitive as it might seem it isn't always beneficial to remove noise in the local environment to far from the electronics of the audio device, at least not in an ad hoc manner. Some amplifiers for instance can more effectively remove noise when it is present on all inputs.

In short - yes. Treat noise at the source. If a mega-cost cable reduced noise then it would make sense to use it on refrigerator, the boiler, the washing machine etc :D Switched Mode Power Supply manufacturers are required to filter mains input but not for the reason you think. The filtering is to reduce the switching harmonics that it creates, otherwise those harmonics would prove damaging to the power distribution network. Once below a certain level they don't care - they've met regulations but mains input is still very noisy from all the sources in the house and even the mains from the street is really really bad quality - often with DC present and flat topped 50Hz wave with harmonics and noise added to that. Above a certain level of noise power companies actually charge money for noise introduced by industry that are deemed noisy.
If you're going down that route you may as well buy a mains capable/rated spectrum analyser (shows frequency across the bottom and amplitude). Several thousand pounds - use it to tune your noise reduction. Only issue is most spectrum analyser frequencies start at 9KHz as the money for that market is in high frequency (ie RF/VHF/UHF of mobile phones etc).

Yes to your point about common noise on inputs, but with caveats.

Most amps are single ended - they have a single AC signal path with shielding around it to ground. Some use XLR and use differential signals where the signal in one conductor is sent 180 out of phase to the other conductor. If you combine (sum) these two signals they cancel out.

Common mode noise - this is when the same phase noise appears on the conductors from EMI or conducted. Amps can use the differential signal then, when one conductor phase is inverted - the signal becomes 2x the strength and the common mode noise (now with one noise signal 180 out of phase with the other signal) then cancel out. This is why XLR is used a lot in the audiophile community.

Differential mode noise - this is when you have noise on one conductor. Just like the RCA connector single ended connections - the amp does not have a second copy of the signal to remove the noise and thus you can't use the common mode trick.

Now noise on both RCA jacks isn't likely to make much of a difference to noise reduction - the source selection circuit only allows one signal to the amp and that's single ended. The inputs grounds are typically tied together so in fact that really does nothing either.

However if you had XLR inputs with noise on - just the one pair of differential signal inputs would have enough information for the amp to use the inverting signal trick to remove a large portion of noise (assuming the track lengths etc don't mess up the alignment which is unlikely for audio).

Most amps are built to a budget, removing noise before it hits the chassis is good. Keeping noise out is good. Mains power also has this common mode+differential mode noise present. So putting the IEC inlet filter on the power input targets common mode and differential noise.

Now going down the rabbit hole. Noise occurs at multiple frequencies and filters are typically targeting a frequency range (they attenuate the signals in that range). Any good mains filter would show the measured attenuation across frequency. My Schaffner IEC filter has multiple models, each with a different frequency-attenuation profile. You know that before you buy - this is mine: https://www.mouser.co.uk/datasheet/2/355/Schaffner_datasheet_FN9262-2898675.pdf on my amp. If you look at page 3 (!) you will see the common mode (CM) and differential mode (dm) attenuation graphs.
Mine is the 6A version.. I could have used a smaller current capable version but given the toroidal transformer inrush it means means enough input to cover that for longevity. The more current capacity the less attenuation.
The reason I went for this is that my mains has a high RF noise which came through the toroid transformer (the curse of the toroid), this adds good reduction at that range.

Why do we need noise reduction?
There's a couple of reasons:
* amplifier components respond to frequency noise outside of the human hearing and amplify those signals (consuming power - this is an important point I'll come to in a second). This can, in the case of bad designs or cost-cut designs, result in causing instability (where gain control and phase vary over frequency - this could result in a self reinforcing loop, and thus causing oscillation (creating a massive output signal) that could destroy the amp. The fact the amp component amplifies a signal means it draws power (ie if you have a 1watt signal in the audio range but a 50watt RF signal being amplified, the power consumed is still over 51watts) but the power system may or may not be able to cope with that. It may not be designed to cope.. that causes less power to be available to the audio signal and you get dipping power rails which cause compression and distort the amplified signal.

* filtering noise before it comes in - passives such as inductors etc can remove noise but need to target specific bands, active noise reduction can be done by both the design (some amp designs inject power rail noise into the input signal so the amplifier then cancels out the power rail noise for example) or by simply adding regulators to the power rail.

* power supplies attempt to reduce noise - between 1-1MHz your voltage regulators can help reduce noise but after about 100KHz their noise attenuation drops off. The amp builder then has to use local decoupling (both a reserve of power and to reduce the loop between the power pin and ground/opposing power rail) as close to the amp component as possible so that the power drawn by amplifying high frequency does not cause noise across the amp. After 100Khz you're starting to look towards using an inductor to block the power rail high frequency signal then local decoupling to provide the fast power response. The main power supply then reacts slower to return power to the drained local decoupled power reserves.
You can also use different regulators - but they're voltage and virtually all are "series pass" which means there's a semiconductor that has to act like a valve to vary the power in response to noise to cancel it out. That voltage regulation process is why they're slower and become useless at about 1MHz. An alternative here is to shunt - where the power is provided to the device.. and a shunt regulator then performs a constantly controlled short circuit. The benefit here is very very low impedance, thus very very fast response time - so there is nothing stopping the device from drawing more power and due to the regulation using current rather than voltage it's faster than voltage regulation. The downside for the shunt is that it can't control current during failure and it burns power.
Designed a 24MHz clock circuit and isolators for my ADC - to prevent noise, it uses local decoupling and uses shunt on the board (along with local power reserves) but with a voltage regulator in the power supply itself. The key design principle here is to both reduce noise incoming and travelling more than a couple of millimetres from the chip power pin itself, it also provides the smallest loop for high frequency return currents.
I have upgraded the caps in my A220, and added local decoupling on the pins of the pre-amp opamp. Adding just 0.1uF ceramics caps to the pins to earth improved the sound - why? because the original power supply is crap and the power supply is situated about 3-4 inches away.. I'm tempted to build a PCB with the same shunt as the ADC and close in power supply for the opamp then run all the signals on that board instead of the existing design.. it would improve the signal substantially.

Ok lots there.. but you get the idea.. TL;DR - quieter frequency spectrum the better. Cost-strapped design implementations leave a lot to be desired. Adding random **** to the equation without measuring and solving that issue is pure guesswork.
 
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Does this make any difference to the sound, or at least any difference you can hear?


I presume you have removed the captive lead, and added this to rear of amplifier case?

I have upgraded the caps in my A220, and added local decoupling on the pins of the pre-amp opamp. Adding just 0.1uF ceramics caps to the pins to earth improved the sound

Any photos, I presume you mean the main caps in the amp?
 
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Does this make any difference to the sound, or at least any difference you can hear?


I presume you have removed the captive lead, and added this to rear of amplifier case?

Any photos, I presume you mean the main caps in the amp?

The version I have is simply the spade terminals (no need to remove cables). This is then basically the same in form against the non-filter IEC port and replaces it.

The IEC filter solved a bump on the scope spectrum up in the MHz and reduced noise across the spectrum. Granted that's only a 20-40dB for the audio range (these are targeting the SMPS harmonics and RF noise) but that slowly adds up. I installed this in conjunction with a number of other changes to replace overheated (and out of spec) resistors etc along with the caps that had shorted. It was a case of - the amp blew a fuse and rectifier bridge due to a shorting cap that was 24 years old. Hence I don't have a before and after comparison - simply the scope that showed a peak and after adding a lot of the noise had disappeared on the scope FFT.

Now I have also changed the opamp and that has a faster slew rate (hence faster draw rate). The data sheet suggests decoupling with 0.1uF caps. The old design had 10uF electrolytic close to the socket but the slew rate of that was 7V/uS vs the new 20V/uS. You only need about 5V/uS for audio BUT it's not the audio you need to worry about, it's anything outside of that.. and that includes noise on the spectrum outside of that.

Quite often the reduction of noise further up the spectrum results in less distortion in the audio spectrum.

No decoupling is different - it's basically trying to put the power as close to the consuming device as possible and any high frequency noise return current is kept in a smallest area possible.

Typically in an amp you may have:

plug -> filter -> transformer -> rectification -> reservoir (mains filter caps) -> regulator (reduces noise drops voltage) -> amplifying device

Decoupling simply makes it like this:

plug -> filter -> transformer -> rectification -> reservoir (mains filter caps) -> regulator (reduces noise drops voltage) -> decoupling cap -> amplifying device

Now a better version would be:

plug -> filter -> transformer -> rectification -> reservoir (mains filter caps) -> regulator (reduces noise drops voltage) -> resistor -> reserve cap -> shunt -> cap -> inductor -> decoupling cap -> amplifying device

The inductor acts to increase impedance for a tuned frequency (ie above audio) and causes a smaller loops back to the amplifying device (source of noise as it amplifies power) but also insulates the amplification from the power through a range of filters by providing a low impedance power source.

Probably a better way is to show the ADC, this is the before - with the series regulators, the isolator and clock board:

dTwa18X.png


After applying a separate large reserve cap, inductor filtering with decoupling caps as SMT:
i5jXKAb.png


You can see that although the filtering inductors are specifically targeted at 24MHz, the noise drop impacts the audio range (note the wiggly rise at the top 100KHz is basically the ADC noise shaping).

The decoupling caps in the amp are simply soldered to the carrier board - the chip is a replacement quad opamp, the small electrolytics are part of the original design, the adaptor board is needed as the new opamp is only available in surface mount and lastly the little blue things - they're 0.1uF ceramic caps (C0G). I can hear the wails of ceramics from the audio crowd..

H5B0z23.jpg


Does it sounds different? Yes. But I can't tell you if that was the time of night (later in the night) etc by listening. It sounds less harsh (and harshness is often attributed to high frequency noise/oscilation). I need to measure the amp at some point with the ADC and bypass the old pre-amp circuit (this runs traces around the board which begs noise).

Since starting the entire amp is clearer.. although my bypass shield wires, use of 630V film caps etc to replace the bad electrolytics in the signal path (!) etc increased detail.
 
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Does it sounds different? Yes. But I can't tell you if that was the time of night (later in the night) etc by listening. It sounds less harsh (and harshness is often attributed to high frequency noise/oscilation). I need to measure the amp at some point with the ADC.

Thanks for contributing in this thread.

I don't fully understand what is happening on the electric's side, I would love to have the skill to modify an amplifier.

I own 2 of these RA Mini Purifiers with Mega Clamps, one I got new £50 discount, the other pre-owned at £175. No doute the components inside are a tiny fraction of what Russ Andrews sell them for.


This is why I mention these however. When there are in use my audio is less harsh, also the amplifier is more comfortable at louder volume. They work best when there on the same power strip as audio components. It's easy to compare what these do, as I only have to un-plug them I hear this instant change in the sound.
 
Thanks for contributing in this thread.

I don't fully understand what is happening on the electric's side, I would love to have the skill to modify an amplifier.

I own 2 of these RA Mini Purifiers with Mega Clamps, one I got new £50 discount, the other pre-owned at £175. No doute the components inside are a tiny fraction of what Russ Andrews sell them for.


This is why I mention these however. When there are in use my audio is less harsh, also the amplifier is more comfortable at louder volume. They work best when there on the same power strip as audio components. It's easy to compare what these do, as I only have to un-plug them I hear this instant change in the sound.

That's the crux - it may be a simple device and not do all that much (and it may even have issues in lightning strikes etc) but without being able to measure it you'll never know.

Also that same functionality could be as simple as amp vendors putting a filter on the mains rather than the audiophile approach of not bothering..
 
Also that same functionality could be as simple as amp vendors putting a filter on the mains rather than the audiophile approach of not bothering..

As a slight "audiophile" myself. I have always looked at noise in a different way than most peeps. I have never ever bothered with any form of filtering for Amps, CD's, power supplies for the afore mentioned. Other than ALWAYS supplying them from a BALANCED power supply in the first place. That includes in my case a Flatcap xs and a Hicap dr.
If everything is powered from a Balanced Power Supply, there simply is NO noise. Even more so so if you can give the manufacturer of the balanced power supply an accurate reading of your average voltage.
None of this is rocket science and is and has been well known for donkeys years. What it does mean though is that anyone who is seriously into hifi and music...........................................the music being the main thing. Needs to understand what i have just said.
I'm sort of guessing only @NickK may well be the only person that knows this on here.
That said, why have you never mentioned a balanced power supply @NickK ? Because if you had have experience of one, you would would know it within seconds.
 
Balanced supply is simply a centre tapped secondary referencing to ground. It’s been used for tube amps for years.

You can use a 1:1 isolating transformer with a centre tap to ground. However you need to be careful of multiple grounds.

It’s the same technique for the XLR “balanced” differential signal. The positive and negative power rails have the same signal applied but 180 out of phase. So when they’re used to amplify the noise common to both cancels out. This means noise coming in from the primary side then appears equally to be 180 deg out of phase.
Actually you can get single ended to XLR transformers thay do precisely this.
You can then use a chokes to remove non common noise too on the secondary side.

Down side? Well your 230V 1:1 will will 117V-0-117V on the secondary. This has implications for the rectification tradeoffs and also some grounding tradeoffs.

Most amps should have one ground reference point - either the CT or after the rectification but not both.

I’ve got a tube amp design that has 117-0-117 toroids but they have to remain ungrounded “floating” as the power supplies sit in a hybrid circlotron configuration so they’re referenced to the audio signal!!

I'll need to look into this more but (a) the isolation transformer has a limited bandwidth of transferring noise anyway, (b) noise transferred is on both live and neutral so the Mains filter (common mode) will operate better and (c) DC from the mains will not be transferred to mains AC (although this is not quite as good as re-shaping using an active power conditioner it will stop the power supplies in the audio equipment from buzzing due to DC).
I have some small low current 117-0-117 so I could try that. However the big thing is that you only get half wave rectification which means.. you get a more bumpy 50Hz AC rectification and not the dual 50Hz making a 100Hz rectification. This has implications on the resulting DC voltage and current capability.

I need to make a PSU for my ADC (currently it takes in SMPS bench power then cleans it up) so I may look at using this for that but the mains and the USB will be two different grounding points.. however I have a number of DIY projects I need to finish before I have time to play with the audio stuff :/
 
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Hehe true. To me the amp sounds better but I wouldn't trust my ears.. need to get the ADC on the amp :D

I've never found a setup I'm 100% happy with in that use - I've tried most of the hyped up capacitors in that use - 0.1-0.22uf WIMA PPs and stuff like Nichicon FGs and Elna Silmic IIs in the 10uf rail to rail or rail to ground positions but while some setups are more pleasing to the ear they aren't as good for noise as ceramics, but ceramics in that position IMO come at an expense of harshness which isn't just because the sound is more transparent.

I have to say out of anything I've tried I've actually found Cornell Dubilier film caps the best for being transparent, but they tend to be expensive - the ones I use for source DC blocking (930C series) are £5 each... and the ones for this kind of application are kind of large.
 
All this kind of gubbins that you can argue does work is still ultimately chasing law of diminishing returns when the primary limiting factor in audio quality is the mechanical aspect of an audio system; the loudspeakers themselves. Do yourself a favour and concentrate buying better speakers instead of chasing 1% changes. If and when you hit the limit of your speakers, then start on the room. You'll get a far better end result a lot quicker. :)
 
All this kind of gubbins that you can argue does work is still ultimately chasing law of diminishing returns when the primary limiting factor in audio quality is the mechanical aspect of an audio system; the loudspeakers themselves. Do yourself a favour and concentrate buying better speakers instead of chasing 1% changes. If and when you hit the limit of your speakers, then start on the room. You'll get a far better end result a lot quicker. :)

If I buy a audiophile fuse for my cooker does that mean I will be a 5 star michelin chef?
 
All this kind of gubbins that you can argue does work is still ultimately chasing law of diminishing returns when the primary limiting factor in audio quality is the mechanical aspect of an audio system; the loudspeakers themselves. Do yourself a favour and concentrate buying better speakers instead of chasing 1% changes. If and when you hit the limit of your speakers, then start on the room. You'll get a far better end result a lot quicker. :)

One thing I would say is that a lot of audio equipment these days, even moderately high end stuff, is built to a cost and the power supply filtering and noise handling in general is often not that great (if it even exists at all), which may mean you do notice some kind of difference using some of these gubbins, which wouldn't be there if they'd done a proper job in the first place :s
 
One thing I would say is that a lot of audio equipment these days, even moderately high end stuff, is built to a cost and the power supply filtering and noise handling in general is often not that great (if it even exists at all), which may mean you do notice some kind of difference using some of these gubbins, which wouldn't be there if they'd done a proper job in the first place :s

The truth is even a high end Seasonic Titanium PSU does not filter all noise getting into my Asus Essence STX II.

People's homes have difference levels of noise on the mains. It's also coming from WiFi and 4/5g, as the broadband spectrum increases it will only get worse.
 
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