So spoke to the credit card company, they are going to start the S75 process with me and said someone will be in touch soon.
legal action against retailer?
- Thread starter BUDFORCE
- Start date
Commissario
Good, when you get a refund, go and see Joe (if he's still alive) at the Gun Shop in Barnet (if it's still open) and buy a pre-fettled 10/22
Good, when you get a refund, go and see Joe (if he's still alive) at the Gun Shop in Barnet (if it's still open) and buy a pre-fettled 10/22
I know that shop, used to live down the road in New Southgate, grew up there my folks live about 20 minute walk away. Intact I bought an air rifle there before I had my license, yea as you say good guy.
Associate
Yep 100% agree with Feek, Ruger 10/22 bomb proof guns.Good, when you get a refund, go and see Joe (if he's still alive) at the Gun Shop in Barnet (if it's still open) and buy a pre-fettled 10/22
Fuming:
So basically taking the side of the retailer.
Also the part above about the store inspecting the rifle is not true, the store did not inpsect the rifle at any point, simply sent it to their supplier and relied on what they were told. It's all awfully convenient particularly as I dont have possession of the rifle.
I know the credit card company is FCA regulated so I will raise it as a complaint, I somehow doubt there is any way I can appeal against this decision now.
Any thoughts?
Good afternoon,
Thank you for considering this claim.
I purchased a brand new rifle on the 23rd April 2022 from (the store). I have attached the receipt, the transaction total is higher as other items were purchased, but the value of the rifle, as new, was £465, as shown on the receipt, which is the total I wish to claim for.
I returned the rifle in store on the 6th October 2022, which is within 6 months of purchase. The product from day one was simply not fit for purpose. I have attached emails describing this.
When I returned the item in store I was told by (guy at store, not the owner), that I would either get a refund, replacement or repair.
Between the 6th October, and today I have rang the store on 5 seperate occasions and a visit in person to the store on the 7th January trying to get an update. Each occasion I was given some kind of excuse or that they would chase up their supplier.
I have attached email correspondence to the store and back on the 12th of January after finally getting hold of an email address. The store are blaming me for the damage, which isn't true. I have replied (as attached) where I am disputing this, and have yet to have any further response.
As of today, well over 3 months from the date I returned the item, I am still not in possession of the item nor had any form of resolution from the store.
The retailer have my money, and have now had the item since the 6th of October, they have gone out side of any "reasonable" amount of time to provide me with a response, and I feel they are trying to get out of honouring the warranty or their legal responsibility as a retailer with regards to my consumer rights.
I have attached the receipt, email exchanges, and google time lines for phone calls and visits to store.
If there is any further information you require please do not hesitate to contact me.
Kind Regards,
Thank you for considering this claim.
I purchased a brand new rifle on the 23rd April 2022 from (the store). I have attached the receipt, the transaction total is higher as other items were purchased, but the value of the rifle, as new, was £465, as shown on the receipt, which is the total I wish to claim for.
I returned the rifle in store on the 6th October 2022, which is within 6 months of purchase. The product from day one was simply not fit for purpose. I have attached emails describing this.
When I returned the item in store I was told by (guy at store, not the owner), that I would either get a refund, replacement or repair.
Between the 6th October, and today I have rang the store on 5 seperate occasions and a visit in person to the store on the 7th January trying to get an update. Each occasion I was given some kind of excuse or that they would chase up their supplier.
I have attached email correspondence to the store and back on the 12th of January after finally getting hold of an email address. The store are blaming me for the damage, which isn't true. I have replied (as attached) where I am disputing this, and have yet to have any further response.
As of today, well over 3 months from the date I returned the item, I am still not in possession of the item nor had any form of resolution from the store.
The retailer have my money, and have now had the item since the 6th of October, they have gone out side of any "reasonable" amount of time to provide me with a response, and I feel they are trying to get out of honouring the warranty or their legal responsibility as a retailer with regards to my consumer rights.
I have attached the receipt, email exchanges, and google time lines for phone calls and visits to store.
If there is any further information you require please do not hesitate to contact me.
Kind Regards,
I am updating you in relation to your Section 75 claim against (the store)
(store owner) has responded and advised the following : The rifle was damaged by Dry firing, this means that the rifle has been fired without a cartridge in the chamber, as this is a rim fire rifle, dry firing the rifle without a cartridge in the chamber results in the firing pin hitting the rear of the chamber instead of the rim of the cartridge as it should, this has resulted in the damage to the rear of the chamber.
(Store) have sent the rifle back to the wholesaler who inspected the rifle themselves and have also confirmed that the damage is due to misuse and is not a warranty claim
The damage can be corrected costing the customer approximately £250 but as the damage has been caused by miss use they cannot accept any claim under warranty to have the rifle repaired.
The operating instructions supplied with the rifle are very clear on how the rifle should be operated.
As (the store) are not willing to assist in this claim, you have two options :
1.Agree that (the store) correct the damage at a cost to yourselves of approximately £250
2.When the gun is back in your possession provide us with an independent expert report that confirms that the Gun you purchased has a manufacturing fault. The report should verify the problems you are experiencing and outline what has caused them. As (credit card company) do not possess the expertise in Guns we are unable to proceed with your claim or pass judgement on the claims validity without advice from an independent engineer qualified in this field - Independent reports should be sourced by yourself and at your own cost. This cost would be refunded to you as part of your claim amount should the claim be successful.
Your local Trading Standards department may be able to provide further information about qualified inspectors within your area - Once you have obtained the report please forward a copy to : credit card email address
I understand you may be disappointed with this outcome, however, feel we have acted in a fair and reasonable manner.
(store owner) has responded and advised the following : The rifle was damaged by Dry firing, this means that the rifle has been fired without a cartridge in the chamber, as this is a rim fire rifle, dry firing the rifle without a cartridge in the chamber results in the firing pin hitting the rear of the chamber instead of the rim of the cartridge as it should, this has resulted in the damage to the rear of the chamber.
(Store) have sent the rifle back to the wholesaler who inspected the rifle themselves and have also confirmed that the damage is due to misuse and is not a warranty claim
The damage can be corrected costing the customer approximately £250 but as the damage has been caused by miss use they cannot accept any claim under warranty to have the rifle repaired.
The operating instructions supplied with the rifle are very clear on how the rifle should be operated.
As (the store) are not willing to assist in this claim, you have two options :
1.Agree that (the store) correct the damage at a cost to yourselves of approximately £250
2.When the gun is back in your possession provide us with an independent expert report that confirms that the Gun you purchased has a manufacturing fault. The report should verify the problems you are experiencing and outline what has caused them. As (credit card company) do not possess the expertise in Guns we are unable to proceed with your claim or pass judgement on the claims validity without advice from an independent engineer qualified in this field - Independent reports should be sourced by yourself and at your own cost. This cost would be refunded to you as part of your claim amount should the claim be successful.
Your local Trading Standards department may be able to provide further information about qualified inspectors within your area - Once you have obtained the report please forward a copy to : credit card email address
I understand you may be disappointed with this outcome, however, feel we have acted in a fair and reasonable manner.
So basically taking the side of the retailer.
Also the part above about the store inspecting the rifle is not true, the store did not inpsect the rifle at any point, simply sent it to their supplier and relied on what they were told. It's all awfully convenient particularly as I dont have possession of the rifle.
I know the credit card company is FCA regulated so I will raise it as a complaint, I somehow doubt there is any way I can appeal against this decision now.
Any thoughts?
Soldato
Their response seems reasonable to be honest, they have to look at both sides of the situation - if you're sure the fault has nothing to do with dry firing then getting an independent inspection seems sensible (depending how much that would cost ofc). It doesn't really sound like an unfair request to me, bear in mind the CC company probably deal with plenty of chancers wanting refunds for items they have damaged through misuse! I'd be more concerned if they just blindly took your word for it to be honest, rather than doing their due diligence.
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Ive sent this, worth a go:
Good afternoon,
Thank you for your reply.
With regards to the points below:
"The rifle was damaged by Dry firing, this means that the rifle has been fired without a cartridge in the chamber, as this is a rim fire rifle, dry firing the rifle without a cartridge in the chamber results in the firing pin hitting the rear of the chamber instead of the rim of the cartridge as it should, this has resulted in the damage to the rear of the chamber."
At no point have I ever denied this. The rifle dry fired as a result of the rifle missfeeding. The dry fire happened due to the magazines not fitting correctly/too loosely fitting into the rifle, NOT due to misuse. To use an analogy, if you purchase a washing machine, and that washing machine developed an electrical fault, which then set the washing machine on fire. To then blame the user for setting the washing machine on fire. The claim (the store) are making does not prove anything. I am well aware of the operating instructions and as such have never dry fired the gun with intention, as I understand the potential damage this could cause.
The reason the dry firing occured, and root cause of the malfunction, is due to the magazine not fitting well. When rifle is fired, gas pressure forces the bolt back, behind the top round in the magazine, as the gas pressure is released, the counter force of the spring pushes the bolt back forward, catching the back of the round from the top of the magazine, and feeding this into the chamber. As the magazine does not fit well into the rifle, the top round does not always sit perfectly level. As it is not level, the bolt will push the top round towards the chamber at varying angles, and "miss" the chamber, causing the rifle to jam and missfire, or for a round not to be loaded, which in turn can result in the rifle being dry fired.
When I returned the rifle in store, (the guy at the store) at (the store) had a look at the rifle and agreed the magazines did not fit well, and suggested from experience it may be due to a mismatch of batches or a faulty batch of magazines.
(the store) have still made no further comment with regards to the magazines not fitting correctly. As previously stated I have made numerous phone calls, emails and a visit in person.
"(the store) have sent the rifle back to the wholesaler who inspected the rifle themselves and have also confirmed that the damage is due to misuse and is not a warranty claim"
The above statement would suggest that (the store) inspected the rifle themselves, but as far as I am aware, after the rifle was handed into Mark (and see above comments) it was sent to their supplier as (the store) also believed that this was a issue the magazine. As I understand their supplier, are still in possession. If (the store) inspected the rifle and also came to the conclusion as they are stating above, could it please be confirmed when, and why this was not communicated?
Given the above, can this decision please be reconsidered?
Thank you
ME
Thank you for your reply.
With regards to the points below:
"The rifle was damaged by Dry firing, this means that the rifle has been fired without a cartridge in the chamber, as this is a rim fire rifle, dry firing the rifle without a cartridge in the chamber results in the firing pin hitting the rear of the chamber instead of the rim of the cartridge as it should, this has resulted in the damage to the rear of the chamber."
At no point have I ever denied this. The rifle dry fired as a result of the rifle missfeeding. The dry fire happened due to the magazines not fitting correctly/too loosely fitting into the rifle, NOT due to misuse. To use an analogy, if you purchase a washing machine, and that washing machine developed an electrical fault, which then set the washing machine on fire. To then blame the user for setting the washing machine on fire. The claim (the store) are making does not prove anything. I am well aware of the operating instructions and as such have never dry fired the gun with intention, as I understand the potential damage this could cause.
The reason the dry firing occured, and root cause of the malfunction, is due to the magazine not fitting well. When rifle is fired, gas pressure forces the bolt back, behind the top round in the magazine, as the gas pressure is released, the counter force of the spring pushes the bolt back forward, catching the back of the round from the top of the magazine, and feeding this into the chamber. As the magazine does not fit well into the rifle, the top round does not always sit perfectly level. As it is not level, the bolt will push the top round towards the chamber at varying angles, and "miss" the chamber, causing the rifle to jam and missfire, or for a round not to be loaded, which in turn can result in the rifle being dry fired.
When I returned the rifle in store, (the guy at the store) at (the store) had a look at the rifle and agreed the magazines did not fit well, and suggested from experience it may be due to a mismatch of batches or a faulty batch of magazines.
(the store) have still made no further comment with regards to the magazines not fitting correctly. As previously stated I have made numerous phone calls, emails and a visit in person.
"(the store) have sent the rifle back to the wholesaler who inspected the rifle themselves and have also confirmed that the damage is due to misuse and is not a warranty claim"
The above statement would suggest that (the store) inspected the rifle themselves, but as far as I am aware, after the rifle was handed into Mark (and see above comments) it was sent to their supplier as (the store) also believed that this was a issue the magazine. As I understand their supplier, are still in possession. If (the store) inspected the rifle and also came to the conclusion as they are stating above, could it please be confirmed when, and why this was not communicated?
Given the above, can this decision please be reconsidered?
Thank you
ME
Commissario
Yeah, the cc company isn't looking at the actual fault, the reason you've returned it is not due to damage in the chamber but due to the feed issues. The shop are trying to deflect the fault to get out of this. I doubt whether that chamber damage will make any difference to the actual operation of the gun.
I think you're wasting your time. From CC company's perspective, all they see is a customer claiming something was faulty and a seller saying it was damaged by misuse.
They are not qualified to evaluate the factual merits of your explanation as to why you believe it is faulty and not actually misuse.
All they want is to see a statement from an appropriately qualified independent expert, backing up your position.
Best of luck getting it resolved though. I think your explanation of the problem is clear, I just don't think it will help progress your claim.
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Associate
The gun store seems totally inept. I'm glad I don't have to deal with them.
User: the rounds don't feed properly, made it dry fire and damaged it
Manufacturer: the user dry fired it, this damaged it and means the rounds don't feed properly
Retailer: *shrug*
Credit Card Co: ???
...I suspect you'll be urinating into the wind with this one.
Manufacturer: the user dry fired it, this damaged it and means the rounds don't feed properly
Retailer: *shrug*
Credit Card Co: ???
...I suspect you'll be urinating into the wind with this one.
Soldato
Has nobody suggested a poo through their letterbox yet?
Who is the credit card company? I’d want to avoid them!
Who is the credit card company? I’d want to avoid them!
Soldato
100% this. The CC company have admitted as much (they don't have the expertise in house to assess it). They've given an (IMO) reasonable compromise, which is to have it inspected by a professional and a report provided to confirm that the issue is caused by a manufacturing fault rather than misuse.
Soldato
surely just get a report from someone qualified that there's a fault with the magazines (or whatever it is) which caused the dry fire. submit that to the cc and roberts your mothers brother - or am i reading the second of the cc reply totally wrong?
Yup thanks all.
Guessing you guys are probably right, but thought I'd give it a go, next step will be to get the rifle returned........
I guess if I get messed around on that, eg ask for the item to be returned, and no reply within say, 2 weeks I can go back to the CC company and that will go in my favour.
Frustratingly I'm betting the store will charge me for sending the firearm back and forth, despite no mention of this to me prior, but they have to send it by RFD which mean I'll be further out of pocket, for now...but I'm guessing if they do try to charge me I have no way avoiding this.
Guessing you guys are probably right, but thought I'd give it a go, next step will be to get the rifle returned........
I guess if I get messed around on that, eg ask for the item to be returned, and no reply within say, 2 weeks I can go back to the CC company and that will go in my favour.
Frustratingly I'm betting the store will charge me for sending the firearm back and forth, despite no mention of this to me prior, but they have to send it by RFD which mean I'll be further out of pocket, for now...but I'm guessing if they do try to charge me I have no way avoiding this.
Soldato
Well yes, it's still your property, so they have to return it - in fact I'd almost be tempted to make sure they are aware you want it back to get an independent inspection for the chargeback - if they know its faulty and are just trying to fob you off then it might prompt them to fix it "as a gesture of good will"
If they do charge for the postage then you can most likely claim that back from the CC as well
So I did get a reply on Wednesday last week following me email as per the most recent spoiler above:
Then my reply to the CC (this is still wednesday last week)
The CC just then sent a reasonable generic email saying comments noted and passed to the retailer, and will be in touch when they hear back. At least they are entertaining the further arguement, which is good.
Jump to today, I have sent the below chaser:
I am pushing on timescales to see if the CC company will just agree it has simply taken to long, given they have now had the rifle nearly 4 months.
Dear ME
Thank you for your email and providing a greater understanding of the malfunction.
As we have little knowledge of guns, please confirm if the magazine, that you advise has caused the damage, was purchased from **** with the gun.
Thank you for your email and providing a greater understanding of the malfunction.
As we have little knowledge of guns, please confirm if the magazine, that you advise has caused the damage, was purchased from **** with the gun.
Then my reply to the CC (this is still wednesday last week)
Good morning,
Thank you for your quick response.
Yes the magazines (the rifle is supplied with two) are sold with the rifle as new, and are part of the product as such. The results with both of the magazines are the same in terms of the issues described prior.
Thank you for looking into this, I do appreciate it.
If needs be I will be taking the rifle to an independent expert, I would rather avoid the whole ordeal and allow **** to settle this without having to go down that route, as I am sure you can appreciate.
I am also somewhat concerned about getting the rifle returned given the communication (or lack of) I have experienced ****, I assume they would have to return the item if requested in a timely manner, as the rifle is still my property?
Thank you
ME
Thank you for your quick response.
Yes the magazines (the rifle is supplied with two) are sold with the rifle as new, and are part of the product as such. The results with both of the magazines are the same in terms of the issues described prior.
Thank you for looking into this, I do appreciate it.
If needs be I will be taking the rifle to an independent expert, I would rather avoid the whole ordeal and allow **** to settle this without having to go down that route, as I am sure you can appreciate.
I am also somewhat concerned about getting the rifle returned given the communication (or lack of) I have experienced ****, I assume they would have to return the item if requested in a timely manner, as the rifle is still my property?
Thank you
ME
The CC just then sent a reasonable generic email saying comments noted and passed to the retailer, and will be in touch when they hear back. At least they are entertaining the further arguement, which is good.
Jump to today, I have sent the below chaser:
Good morning,
Just wondering if there is any response from **** given we are another week forward please?
I did have a look at consumer law and as the product was a brand new item, and returned within 6 months the owness is on the retailer to prove the issue wasn't present from new.
I am wondering if any consideration can be made for timescales, considering they have had the product now since the 6th October 2022, that is nearly 4 months with no real progress, and if this would go outside of what can be considered a reasonable amout of time to get a resolution?
Thank you again,
ME
Just wondering if there is any response from **** given we are another week forward please?
I did have a look at consumer law and as the product was a brand new item, and returned within 6 months the owness is on the retailer to prove the issue wasn't present from new.
I am wondering if any consideration can be made for timescales, considering they have had the product now since the 6th October 2022, that is nearly 4 months with no real progress, and if this would go outside of what can be considered a reasonable amout of time to get a resolution?
Thank you again,
ME
I am pushing on timescales to see if the CC company will just agree it has simply taken to long, given they have now had the rifle nearly 4 months.
Soldato
*onus
But yes, just "attack" from any angle you can - it shouldn't be so, but unfortunately in cases like this, you have to make it more time consuming (and therefore costly), to constantly have to deal with you than it is to just fix the problem to get rid of you.
But yes, just "attack" from any angle you can - it shouldn't be so, but unfortunately in cases like this, you have to make it more time consuming (and therefore costly), to constantly have to deal with you than it is to just fix the problem to get rid of you.
bit more on this:
got an email from the store today:
Nice and vaugue, and **** poor grammar but whatever..... So I have sent the following to the CC company.
As I feel its worth checking in with them first.
got an email from the store today:
hi
your rifle is here to collect
****
your rifle is here to collect
****
Nice and vaugue, and **** poor grammar but whatever..... So I have sent the following to the CC company.
Good afternoon,
I hope you are well.
In addition to the below, I have now received the attached email from ****.
I just wanted to check in with you for guidance that if I go and pick up the item this would not affect the claim which is currently in progress eg: this wouldn't form some kind of acceptance?
Thank you again for your help so far.
Regards,
ME
I hope you are well.
In addition to the below, I have now received the attached email from ****.
I just wanted to check in with you for guidance that if I go and pick up the item this would not affect the claim which is currently in progress eg: this wouldn't form some kind of acceptance?
Thank you again for your help so far.
Regards,
ME
As I feel its worth checking in with them first.