London pollution & ULEZ

[b0rn2sk8]

Some people in this thread most be going through tin foil like there is no tomorrow.

What cracks me up is the comments along the lines of ‘the French would never put up with this’.

News flash, there has been a low emission zone covering the whole of Paris for years and has far more restrictive requirements than the London ULEZ. There is no pay £12.50 to use your car, in Paris, you can’t even drive certain vehicles in the zone during peak periods.

They’ve also gone full ‘tax disk’ in that you have to buy an emissions category sticker for your car and display it or you’ll get fined and that’s how they control who can or can’t come into the zone. Oh and if you display someone else’s sticker you’ll get a fine too.

In France they now have low emission zones covering:

• Aix-Marseille-Provence region
• Bordeaux
• Clermont-Ferrand
• Grenoble
• Lille
• Lyon
• Montpellier
• Nice
• Paris
• Reims
• Strasbourg
• Toulouse

They are all over Europe too, I did a tour of Belgium recently and Ghent has a full ‘15 minute city’ style routing of traffic and they have completely pedestrianised the entire centre of the city. It’s sounds really anti car but it isn’t, there was hardly any traffic, it was easy to get parked and it made the entire car free city centre a really nice place to be.

 

[StriderX]

People just need to accept the time of having an unconnected car you own is coming to an end like everything else has, just bend over already jeez.

 

[FoxEye]

They are all over Europe too, I did a tour of Belgium recently and Ghent has a full ‘15 minute city’ style routing of traffic and they have completely pedestrianised the entire centre of the city. It’s sounds really anti car but it isn’t, there was hardly any traffic, it was easy to get parked and it made the entire car free city centre a really nice place to be.

Sounds lovely.

Oh wait, forgot where I was. Sounds like something those dirty communist Europeans would do. Give me freedom or give me death!

 

[Uther]

People just need to accept the time of having an unconnected car you own is coming to an end like everything else has, just bend over already jeez.

My thoughts too. The day is coming when anyone who wants to drive will have to be in an internet connected EV, with road charging easily sorted from there.

 

[Mr Jack]

What I'm seeing in the survey you linked to is that while more people from inner London (who already have ULEZ so are unaffected by the expansion) are positive on expanding it, 6% more outer London residents (who will be affected by it) do not want it.

As it happens, I had cause to look at that page again and I realised I got it right the first time: it is equal support/oppose in Outer London:

(Although admittedly, the opposition has more "strongly oppose"). You probably looked at this chart of support/opposition to congestion charge expansion:

Which does say -6% and I too got confused with when I went to double check. As you were

 

[Richie]

They are all over Europe too, I did a tour of Belgium recently and Ghent has a full ‘15 minute city’ style routing of traffic and they have completely pedestrianised the entire centre of the city. It’s sounds really anti car but it isn’t, there was hardly any traffic, it was easy to get parked and it made the entire car free city centre a really nice place to be.

I'd imagine population density has a lot to do with that as well. The whole of Belgium only has 11.6m people and London itself has 9m people.

 

[Chris Wilson]

Anything that reduces population levels is good, especially cheaply implemented methods like asphyxiating the poor. Stop ULEZ.

Tory councils must condemn

 

[b0rn2sk8]

Sounds lovely.

Oh wait, forgot where I was. Sounds like something those dirty communist Europeans would do. Give me freedom or give me death!

It really was, recommend a visit if you have the chance.

I'd imagine population density has a lot to do with that as well. The whole of Belgium only has 11.6m people and London itself has 9m people.

What has population density got to do with implementing a low emission zone or implementing LTN’s / not allowing through traffic down residential rat runs and diverting it down bigger through roads?

If anything, European cities are pretty dense and occupy a smaller footprint because they favour mid-rise apartments unlike the U.K. where we favour individual houses which creates a huge urban sprawl.

Cities like Ghent date back medieval times. The streets are narrow, not too dissimilar to London. Many of them are are still cobbled in the centre.

The difference is hardly anyone drives, around the city but everyone still owns and uses cars to do longer trips. Almost all of the population use bikes to get around. There are people zipping around on electric cargo bikes to go to the shops etc.

Over here it’s rare you see a cyclist in town let alone one that’s electrically assisted.

 

[Richie]

What has population density got to do with implementing a low emission zone or implementing LTN’s / not allowing through traffic down residential rat runs and diverting it down bigger through roads?

I bolded the relevant part... Lemme try again so it's clearer.

They are all over Europe too, I did a tour of Belgium recently and Ghent has a full ‘15 minute city’ style routing of traffic and they have completely pedestrianised the entire centre of the city. It’s sounds really anti car but it isn’t, there was hardly any traffic, it was easy to get parked and it made the entire car free city centre a really nice place to be.

I'd imagine population density has a lot to do with that as well. The whole of Belgium only has 11.6m people and London itself has 9m people.

Less people = less traffic = more likely to get parked easier.

 

[Mr Jack]

What has population density got to do with implementing a low emission zone or implementing LTN’s / not allowing through traffic down residential rat runs and diverting it down bigger through roads?

If anything, European cities are pretty dense and occupy a smaller footprint because they favour mid-rise apartments unlike the U.K. where we favour individual houses which creates a huge urban sprawl.

Cities like Ghent date back medieval times. The streets are narrow, not too dissimilar to London. Many of them are are still cobbled in the centre.

London is the second largest city in Western Europe, Gwent has a lower population than Leicester; I don't think they're really all that comparable. But... increased size makes the case for LEZ/LTNs etc. stronger rather than weakening it.

 

[bigmike20vt]

And Starmeleon wants to drop it like a hot potato, too.

None of them have any real principles, when push comes to shove, as they say.

oh indeed I am not taking party sides at all. I just find it funny that conservatives are being so vocal about someone implementing their own policy.
as for labour .... they are equally uturning on their own pledges as well it seems. it's all a mess

 

[Peter75]

which odious little man is this? because this is Boris Johnsons policy isn't it and despite the turncoat lies was also pushed by Schapps as shown earlier in thread... it is just being put in place by someone else who happens to be on the left so is now being used by the Tories as a vote winner as being bad.

Why not all 3? or are you so deluded you don't think they're all like that.

 

[Lightnix]

oh indeed I am not taking party sides at all. I just find it funny that conservatives are being so vocal about someone implementing their own policy.
as for labour .... they are equally uturning on their own pledges as well it seems. it's all a mess

I blame FPTP for getting us stuck with them both.

 

[neilw]

The point of ULEZ is money and not reducing anything of note, in my opinion.

I agree. If they don't want polluting cars in London completely ban then completely.

 

[delta0]

Some people in this thread most be going through tin foil like there is no tomorrow.

What cracks me up is the comments along the lines of ‘the French would never put up with this’.

News flash, there has been a low emission zone covering the whole of Paris for years and has far more restrictive requirements than the London ULEZ. There is no pay £12.50 to use your car, in Paris, you can’t even drive certain vehicles in the zone during peak periods.

They’ve also gone full ‘tax disk’ in that you have to buy an emissions category sticker for your car and display it or you’ll get fined and that’s how they control who can or can’t come into the zone. Oh and if you display someone else’s sticker you’ll get a fine too.

In France they now have low emission zones covering:

• Aix-Marseille-Provence region
• Bordeaux
• Clermont-Ferrand
• Grenoble
• Lille
• Lyon
• Montpellier
• Nice
• Paris
• Reims
• Strasbourg
• Toulouse

They are all over Europe too, I did a tour of Belgium recently and Ghent has a full ‘15 minute city’ style routing of traffic and they have completely pedestrianised the entire centre of the city. It’s sounds really anti car but it isn’t, there was hardly any traffic, it was easy to get parked and it made the entire car free city centre a really nice place to be.

There’s more than that like Rouen etc. lots more being added over the coming years. They don’t let you drive in with a big fine (soon to become a huge fine) if you do.

 

[bigmike20vt]

Why not all 3? or are you so deluded you don't think they're all like that.

I think it's a sliding scale of ineptitude, dishonest and corruptness. I believe all of them are somewhat dodgy and on the scale but the current crop are worst than most
however in this specific case it is the conservatives who wins the prize on this topic because ULEZ is their policy which is being implemented by Khan

 

[Peter75]

however in this specific case it is the conservatives who wins the prize on this topic because ULEZ is their policy which is being implemented by Khan

No-one is forcing Khan/Labour to implement these changes. He/They have the power to stop this but they won't and people like yourself have the perfect excuse if anyone questions it. You blame the person beforehand who implemented these initiatives who as you well know is no longer in a position to walk it back. However, Khan is the current mayor of London with all the power that the position holds. No amount of finger pointing towards the former mayor will change that.

 

[b0rn2sk8]

I bolded the relevant part... Lemme try again so it's clearer.





Less people = less traffic = more likely to get parked easier.

The size of the city does not necessarily determine what the traffic is like. For example take Cambridge which has one of the better uptake of cycling in the U.K., is literally 1/3 the size of the city in question but the traffic is utterly horrendous.

The overwhelming reason there is no traffic in the likes of Ghent is because the locals don’t use their cars to get around the city, they leave them at home. Cambridge has one of the highest upstate of cycling in the U.K. but it’s nothing compared to what you’d find in places like Ghent or Amsterdam.

As has already been posted in this thread, the vast majority of the traffic on the roads in London is locals doing very short journeys.

 

[neocon]

I think they've realised they can't get everyone into EVs so will need to bring in pay as you drive instead to fill the tax black hole.

 

[Richie]

The size of the city does not necessarily determine what the traffic is like. For example take Cambridge which has one of the better uptake of cycling in the U.K., is literally 1/3 the size of the city in question but the traffic is utterly horrendous.

The overwhelming reason there is no traffic in the likes of Ghent is because the locals don’t use their cars to get around the city, they leave them at home. Cambridge has one of the highest upstate of cycling in the U.K. but it’s nothing compared to what you’d find in places like Ghent or Amsterdam.

As has already been posted in this thread, the vast majority of the traffic on the roads in London is locals doing very short journeys.

You bring up size but your numbers are incorrect. Let me show you.

Area size of Ghent - 156km²
Population of Ghent - 264,000
Density - 0.59m²/person

Area size of Cambridge - 41km²
Population of Cambridge - 146,000
Density - 0.28m²/person

So Cambridge has circa double the population density than Ghent. More people = more traffic = more parking issues


I'm not saying you're incorrect but what you what state isn't the ONLY reason. Part of the reason is ALSO population density as to why you say there was no traffic of parking issues when you went there.

Why you can't just concede that and want to argue that it doesn't is beyond me