London pollution & ULEZ

[adam cool dude]

But the scrapage scheme encourages people to get rid of more poluting cars. If they sold those on they just push the issue else were.

You would just get somewhere like Milton Keynes full of non Ulez complient cars poluting the good city.

This really infuriates me no end. You know it is actually more green to keep a car running than buying a brand new one. The pollution just to produce a Tesla can take 60+ thousand miles just before you break even. You are creating a world wide issue by making it worse. Forget a city centre.

The roads at the moment are actually not that bad. It is almost night and day. Do you know why? Kids off school. If the government focused on public transport for schools for example you would take plenty of cars off the streets.

If you also made it policy that companies who employed over a certain threshold would need to provide transport to work over a certain mileage. That would be another way to get cars off the road.

 

[bigmike20vt]

The pollution jst to produce a Tesla can take 60+ thousand miles just before you break even.

that is GB news levels of BS

yes we should NOT all go out and buy new cars but the break even point on a new EV Vs a new ICE is far less than 60k miles

the people looking at scrappage cars are not likely to go out and buy a new Tesla are they? if they were they would not be likely to have a non compliant car in the 1st place

I am all for an honest critique but that kind of thing is pure nonsense.

 

[m4rmite]

This really infuriates me no end. You know it is actually more green to keep a car running than buying a brand new one. The pollution just to produce a Tesla can take 60+ thousand miles just before you break even.

Do you know any other jokes?
I've got a party coming up soon and need some to keep the kids entertained.

 

[mattyprice4004]

Do you know any other jokes?
I've got a party coming up soon and need some to keep the kids entertained.

The joke is that you actually think he’s wrong

 

[m4rmite]

The joke is that you actually think he’s wrong

Show me your calculations.

 

[bigmike20vt]

The joke is that you actually think he’s wrong

some bed time reading for you

https://greet.es.anl.gov/

or the main important conclusion the graph is about 1/3 of the way down the link below

Electric Vehicle Myths | US EPA

Facts and myths about electric vehicles.

www.epa.gov

TLDR it depends on how clean your electricity it is but the break even point is at under 15000 miles.

 

[Werewolf]

Their public transport systems don't cost £lol and aren't constantly on strike though.

I was looking at going to Prague the other day and saw that a 24h travel pass is something like £4.

Bus, metro, trains, trams, the lot.

£4. And they don't strike.

I think they can, but they don't need to at the moment*, and IIRC in at least some EU countries when public transport workers "strike" they have the option of continuing to work but not collecting or enforcing fares.

That was IIRC made specifically illegal in the UK with it being classed as "theft", some who are either cynical or realists would say the law was bought in because a striking transport worker who is costing the boss money but not inconveniencing the public who rely on them is far more likely to get a sympathetic response from the public, and thus the bosses and government can't rely on public pressure to force them back to normal as fast.


*The UK has had far worse wage growth than most of the EU, and in most of the EU the governments realised that you needed to at least not give everyone a real term pay cut continuously for the last 10+ years.

 

[Diddums]

not collecting or enforcing fares.

Funny you bring this up, when I lived in Holland we went through a bit of a strikey phase like England's experiencing now and the conductors simply stopped checking tickets. We used to love it as it effectively meant we could go anywhere in the country for nada.

 

[m4rmite]

some bed time reading for you

https://greet.es.anl.gov/

or the main important conclusion the graph is about 1/3 of the way down the link below

Electric Vehicle Myths | US EPA

Facts and myths about electric vehicles.

www.epa.gov

Don't...............................
Let them show us their facts first ..
It's harder to backtrack after their answer is written for all to see.

ps. i'm waiting for the but if its charged on a 100% coal powered grid the break even point is 78k miles.
Alternatively a 100% solar/wind grid has a break even point is circa 8k miles.
We live at neither place so it's uk figures we need.

 

[Werewolf]

Funny you bring this up, when I lived in Holland we went through a bit of a strikey phase like England's experiencing now and the conductors simply stopped checking tickets. We used to love it as it effectively meant we could go anywhere in the country for nada.

Aye I remember reading of it years ago in regards to several countries and it just stuck in my memory as a great way for strikers to get their point across to management, but also demonstrate to the public that they were not unwilling to do the job and didn't want to hurt the public.

In the UK it's not an option at all, so you end up with the public turning against those that want better pay as our government has really done a great job on divide and conquer when it comes to any sort of wage issue, as can be seen by all the people who go "why should they get paid more than me?" as opposed to "why are we all not being treated better".

 

[esmozz]

That was IIRC made specifically illegal in the UK with it being classed as "theft", some who are either cynical or realists would say the law was bought in because a striking transport worker who is costing the boss money but not inconveniencing the public who rely on them is far more likely to get a sympathetic response from the public, and thus the bosses and government can't rely on public pressure to force them back to normal as fast.

That's the good thing about discussions like this - I didn't actually know that. So I learnt something today.

However, I would say that a lot of Europe is being a bit 'strikey' at the moment and certainly within Germany, train stikes mean lots of cancelled trains. Which is a shame, because it seems a great way to get your point across and apply pressure in the right place.

 

[bigmike20vt]

Don't...............................
Let them show us their facts first ..
It's harder to backtrack after their answer is written for all to see.

ps. i'm waiting for the but if its charged on a 100% coal powered grid the break even point is 78k miles.
Alternatively a 100% solar/wind grid has a break even point is circa 8k miles.
We live at neither place so it's uk figures we need.

I did see the UK figures but can't find them now however it is 13-15k miles I think for us.

even that can vary wildly however. once I move over to intelligent octopus energy then my export profits will be next to nowt ... so any excess electricity I generate will be dumped in the car making it cleaner.... OTOH of course that means I won't be supplying the energy to the grid for use when it is needed most (and then charging the car when demand is low in the early hrs of the morning)

so my car will be cleaner but my over all contribution to the grid will be reduced

 

[b0rn2sk8]

Where’s this notion that Europeans don’t strike come from. Cracks me up some of the nonsense people come out with sometimes.

I was in Paris earlier this year and the entire city was basically shut down for the day because the public transport worker were on strike.

Paris has one of the more stringent ULEZ schemes which just bans older diesel cars in the city and actually the city is far better off for it along side allowing privately owned scooters and all the cycling infrastructure they have put in.

 

[jpaul]

Paris does seem to have good on street charging infrastructure.



Let's have an equitable ULEZ pay for how much you pollute/congest

probably with some adjustment for increased (mpg/wkm) pollution/carbon during warm up,


Chancellor could consider whether the 4x vs private company bev drivers with BIK subsidised by tax payer, are using that additional income for nefarious carbon consumption (eg jets) too.

Twitter user Zohar claims to have bought a spanking new Tesla Model 3 for $18,525 after taxes and fees in California. Sounds unreal, right? Before you scratch your head, we’ll break down the incentives Zohar put together, based on what he shared on the platform.
He purchased the rear-wheel-drive Model 3 with 18-inch wheels, draped in the midnight silver paint and a white interior, with an inventory discount of $4,120, for a sticker price of $37,120. A $500 referral reduced the price to $36,620 – the referral also gets you three months of free Full-Self Driving (FSD) capability.
Zohar shared that due to a unique financial situation from last year, he qualified for the top rebates in each program for low-income individuals. Although he maintained a good credit score and this year his income increased, due to which he would have the tax liability to benefit from the $7,500 federal clean vehicle credit.

Here’s a list of subsidies he was able to obtain:

$7,500: California’s Clean Vehicle Rebate Project
$4,000: Electrify Your Ride Program from Central Coast Community Energy
$4,000: Monterey Bay Air Resources District - Electric Vehicle Incentive Program
$7,500: Federal clean vehicle credit

 

[adam cool dude]

that is GB news levels of BS

yes we should NOT all go out and buy new cars but the break even point on a new EV Vs a new ICE is far less than 60k miles

the people looking at scrappage cars are not likely to go out and buy a new Tesla are they? if they were they would not be likely to have a non compliant car in the 1st place

I am all for an honest critique but that kind of thing is pure nonsense.

I am not talking about new ice Vs EV. I am talking about keeping an old ice Vs EV. We throw away cars way before their used by compared to a lot on the continent.

Don't...............................
Let them show us their facts first ..
It's harder to backtrack after their answer is written for all to see.

ps. i'm waiting for the but if its charged on a 100% coal powered grid the break even point is 78k miles.
Alternatively a 100% solar/wind grid has a break even point is circa 8k miles.
We live at neither place so it's uk figures we need.

My Saab produces 226g/km. It's carbon footprint has already been done. To produce a Tesla is around 22 tonnes. Do the maths. It is not hard. That also implies that the Tesla uses 100% renewable to charge.

 

[bigmike20vt]

I am not talking about new ice Vs EV. I am talking about keeping an old ice Vs EV. We throw away cars way before their used by compared to a lot on the continent.



My Saab produces 226g/km. It's carbon footprint has already been done. To produce a Tesla is around 22 tonnes. Do the maths. It is not hard. That also implies that the Tesla uses 100% renewable to charge.

so don't scrap it then.... but it doesn't mean it is suitable really for built up cities with an air pollution problem . there are plenty of places where such vehicles are fine. that doesn't mean you have to go out and buy a brand new car either if you happen to live in London or visit a lot ..... just buy another cheap car if that is what you want... but one which is compliant.

but at some point those vehicles will not be worth keeping on the road imo

(I kind of feel the same about classic cars. nice as they are perhaps they need to be modernised as well if they are to stay on our roads...... same with some old houses as well

 

[adam cool dude]

so don't scrap it then.... but it doesn't mean it is suitable really for built up cities with an air pollution problem . there are plenty of places where such vehicles are fine. that doesn't mean you have to go out and buy a brand new car either if you happen to live in London or visit a lot ..... just buy another cheap car if that is what you want... but one which is compliant.

but at some point those vehicles will not be worth keeping on the road imo

(I kind of feel the same about classic cars. nice as they are perhaps they need to be modernised as well if they are to stay on our roads...... same with some old houses as well

I just bought a brand new car. Although it is ICE and is due in September. My last fun car before everything becomes turgid.

Also my old Saab is ULEZ compliant as it is Euro 4 so is "suitable" enough to drive through London for free anyway. It is on 175k miles with plenty of life in it. It will drive over 1800 miles without stopping in two weeks time to Europe.

I also agree it is not a solution to using cars in built up cities and I agree they should be banned and focus on public transport for non essential journeys like commuting and school run.

Also my 1995 Toyota Celica GT-Four is not ULEZ compliant but does 2000 miles a year if that. Old matey boy in his ULEZ diesel doing painting and decorating tearing up the A406 everyday is doing far more to the air quality and he pays nowt.

 

[m4rmite]

I am not talking about new ice Vs EV. I am talking about keeping an old ice Vs EV. We throw away cars way before their used by compared to a lot on the continent.



My Saab produces 226g/km. It's carbon footprint has already been done. To produce a Tesla is around 22 tonnes. Do the maths. It is not hard. That also implies that the Tesla uses 100% renewable to charge.

Your carbon footprint isn't done though.
Every time it burns fuels it creates more co2, or doesn't that form part of the total emissions??

It's not that hard

 

[adam cool dude]

Your carbon footprint isn't done though.
Every time it burns fuels it creates more co2, or doesn't that form part of the total emissions??

It's not that hard

I never said it did. I don't think you are grasping what I am saying. This is a debate of using a car that has already had its carbon footprint from production Vs purchasing a brand new car that needs to be built from scratch to be "green".

The issue you have from a pure emmisions standpoint is that with a car that emits 225g/km it will take 100,000 km/s before the Tesla which took 22 tonnes to produce to break even. That is on the assumption it runs 100% from renewable charging. That is nearly 9 years I would have to drive my old Saab before the Tesla would start to overtake if it was run 100% on renewables on an average mileage of 11000 km's a year. If you traded in your new Tesla for another new EV before that time it would be even worse. You would be talking close to two decades.

Our consumer consumption is far more damaging in that regard and I will admit I am the same as we all like nice new shiny things. A well maintained HGV can quite easily do a million miles in its lifetime and there is no reason why a car couldn't do the same.

 

[delta0]

I am not talking about new ice Vs EV. I am talking about keeping an old ice Vs EV. We throw away cars way before their used by compared to a lot on the continent.



My Saab produces 226g/km. Its carbon footprint has already been done. To produce a Tesla is around 22 tonnes. Do the maths. It is not hard. That also implies that the Tesla uses 100% renewable to charge.

226g/km is not an upper limit. It’s optimistic.

The break even miles are actually quite low https://www.reuters.com/business/au...lectric-vehicles-vs-gasoline-cars-2021-06-29/