London pollution & ULEZ

Hades said:
No my main point was that EV's will be taxed in one way or another soon. Maybe they are worse for the environment or maybe they are better. I'm not an expert on that so perhaps that fact is wrong. But regardless, they will be taxed more highly soon, probably with the environment as the excuse, and that was what I was getting at
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We’ve been paying tax on EV’s since 2011. It was £5000 per car at one point.
 
Hagar said:
100k tonnes of lithium will become 10 million tonnes in fairly short order once EV become more prolific on the streets.
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It will be more, absolutely but it may not corner the market and it’s still a rounding error in the grand scheme of things.

CATL and BYD are launching Sodium Iron cells this year for use in cars and they expect to make an appearance in vehicles shortly.

They don’t contain lithium and drawback of sodium is lower energy density but benefits from lower cost and performs better at low temperatures. Great for static storage also.

It wasn’t that long ago that LFP was way off the density of NMC based batteries but todays LFP cells are pretty close to their NMC cousins. It’s got great potential going forward.
 
hopefully sodium batteries will take off...... I mean there are multiple alternatives to lithium being looked at but sodium , at least to my "B in A level chemistry" - (so possibly wrong) but sodium seems to have similar properties to lithium and the beauty of it is we have essentially infinite supplies of sodium in sea water. (plenty of lithium in it too but at a very low density so likely not cost effective to extract from there.)
 
bigmike20vt said:
hopefully sodium batteries will take off...... I mean there are multiple alternatives to lithium being looked at but sodium , at least to my "B in A level chemistry" - (so possibly wrong) but sodium seems to have similar properties to lithium and the beauty of it is we have essentially infinite supplies of sodium in sea water. (plenty of lithium in it too but at a very low density so likely not cost effective to extract from there.)
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It would be good if we could have Lithium and Sodium extraction built into desalination plants. Boost clean water supply and extract minerals for use at the same time.
 
indeed..... it was a Boris Johnson policy i think, and imo one of the only positive things of note he has done that i know off... which is ironic seeing as that is the thing his party are hugely trying to distance themselves from.

utter shysters.
 
d_brennen said:
Really? I've lived in London most of my life and don't get "black dust" in my nose or anywhere else. I do recall in the 80s that the net curtains and window sills we stained within a week of cleaning, something which doesn't really happen now
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I live in London and don’t really notice it too much unless I get on the tube. But also as a Londoner I don’t drive a polluting vehicle around so tax the hell out of the drivers imo, we have good public transport
 
Xelene said:
unless I get on the tube.
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Is the tube the worst place presumably the air that is pushed into tunnels is filtered somehow ... but isn't there a lot of dust and dirt down the tunnels themselves from time immemorial

Hades said:
Yep. Electric cars will be taxed soon, probably via road charging. But it wouldn't surprise me if there is a tax on their battery capacity in the name of the rare earth metals that have to be extracted for them.
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they can do that surreptitiously - like Paris / Lyon based on cars weight ...NZ are pioneering ev road usage charge, to match petrol tax, next year I thought, ~10p/mile
 
jpaul said:
Is the tube the worst place presumably the air that is pushed into tunnels is filtered somehow ... but isn't there a lot of dust and dirt down the tunnels themselves from time immemorial


they can do that surreptitiously - like Paris / Lyon based on cars weight ...NZ are pioneering ev road usage charge, to match petrol tax, next year I thought, ~10p/mile
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The French system is €10/kg above 1.8t for petrol and diesel vehicles.
 
Harlequin said:
www.onlondon.co.uk

Letter from Grant Shapps shows that government proposed enlarging London congestion charge zone - OnLondon

The government proposed that Transport for London should massively extend the capital’s current congestion charge zone to the North and South Circular roads, On London can confirm, undermining Conservative claims that the possible new measure was initiated by Sadiq Khan. A section of a letter...
www.onlondon.co.uk www.onlondon.co.uk
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No surprise here.

Khan today said during a meeting of the TfL board, which he chairs, that Johnson had “lied” to the Commons about TfL’s finances and that he was “shocked” that Gilligan “can’t be bothered to turn up to the TfL board meeting”. Gilligan is one of two Special Representatives of the government who are supposed to attend TfL board meetings under the current bailout agreement.
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Tube pollution looks like you need to select your tfl underground line carefully 25x more pm2.5 on victoria line, vs roadside

The stations and lines most severely affected

Concentrations of particulate matter has been shown to be considerably higher in the London Underground in comparison to the wider UK rail network. Smith et al. (2020) indicate that the primary PM2.5 on the underground is iron oxide (47% of PM2.5 composition)13. Particulates in the Underground come from the mechanical wear of train components, brake blocks, rail wear, and also textile fibres10. Additionally, there is pollution that is not just from within the Underground, but also from ambient air which enters via station and tunnel entrances/exits10. The air turbulence created by the movement of trains suspends these particles in the confined air of the Underground and therefore exposes staff and passengers to inhalation of the particulates10,13.

Particulates under 2.5 microns are more abundant at deeper stations with greater distance from above-ground sections of track. The Victoria line has been found by a recent study to have the highest median concentration of PM2.5 from the London Underground lines, with the Northern line also having comparatively high concentrations13. Conversely, District and Docklands Light Railway were recorded to have the lowest and second lowest median concentrations respectively13. It is perhaps worth noting that the Victoria and Northern lines are two relatively enclosed lines while Dockland Light Railway and District lines have large sections out of tunnel13. Vauxhall and Stockwell were the top two in the mean PM2.5 concentrations at stations results but when PM2.5 concentrations were weighted with passenger populations then Oxford Circus and Waterloo were the most severely affected respectively13. This suggests that passenger exposure levels are relatively high at Oxford Circus and Waterloo, which are the second and third most used stations respectively, and that these stations maybe of primary concern relating to human health.

..

Results​

The PM2.5 mass in the LU (mean 88 μg m−3, median 28 μg m−3) was greater than at ambient background locations (mean 19 μg m−3, median 14 μg m−3) and roadside environments in central London (mean 22 μg m−3, median 14 μg m−3). Concentrations varied between lines and locations, with the deepest and shallowest submerged lines being the District (median 4 μg m−3) and Victoria (median 361 μg m−3 but up to 885 μg m−3). Broadly in agreement with other subway systems around the world, sampled LU PM2.5 comprised 47% iron oxide, 7% elemental carbon, 11% organic carbon, and 14% metallic and mineral oxides.
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Yea the tube isn't good for your health, you can literally smell/taste the metal in the air. That said I imagine they'll bring in air filters in the bigger trains that are getting aircon. The smaller ones however....
 
I am just astounded by the way this Ulez thing is being used to put forward rightwing (Tory) propaganda to really stupid people.

Here is the latest stupid story.

www.dailymail.co.uk

Sadiq Khan's luxury Range Rover is exempt from the ULEZ charge:

The ULEZ charge will apply to older vehicles in all London boroughs from August 29, but Mr Khan's bulletproof Range Rover Sentinel complete with armoured glass will be exempt from the fee.
www.dailymail.co.uk www.dailymail.co.uk
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Fortunately for Mr Khan, his lavish 2020 Range Rover, paid for by public funds, does not fall into this category, unlike the situation many hard-up motorists in and around London face, who are having to either buy new vehicles or pay the ULEZ charge.

Those who do not pay the £12.50 charge will be fined £180.
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Next week they will put a story about all the other people that wont have to pay the charge as well.
 
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you know.... yes it's biased hypocritical BS reporting ... and it's not only his car which is exempt it's almost all remotely new aiCE cars . but that said.... He should have seen it coming and really he would have been better off driving an EV even if just for optics (if he likes JLR be could just get an ipace)
 
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