London pollution & ULEZ

[MikeTheNative]

Yep, I know a few tradesman who now just don't offer their services in London anymore. It's not worth it as they get plenty of work elsewhere. The result is you'll find it harder to get work done inside London at a sensible price.

I work for big national sub contractor and we don't bother with london either anymore. It's not even congestion charge but the often lack of parking at the sites and then traffic is so bad the operatives hate going there as they spending hours traveling to site and not actually working.

 

[Richie]

Thought this was more to get road users in to cars with lower emissions?

I dont agree with the expansion of ULEZ, but its not exactly hard to get a vehicle thats ULEZ compliant these days.

Exactly. Petrol cars from 2005 (18 years old max) and diesels from 2015 (8 years old). These can be picked up relatively cheaply.

 

[Hades]

Yep, I know a few tradesman who now just don't offer their services in London anymore. It's not worth it as they get plenty of work elsewhere. The result is you'll find it harder to get work done inside London at a sensible price.

My brother in law was a builder when the first expansion to the North and South Circular happened. My other sister-in-law's boyfriend repaired various machinery like restaurant equipment. Both of them refused to work in the ULEZ zone as most of their customers complained about paying it when they tried to add it to the bill. One of them retired shortly after because most of his work was in that area and he would have had to buy a new van.

 

[Mr Jack]

The expansion that almost no-one wants has been ruled as lawful.

You mean the expansion that more people want than don't has been ruled lawful. +15% overall net support, +35% net support among people with experience of living in ULEZ zones, and equal support/oppose among people in outer London.

And that's despite a relentless barrage of hysterical misinformation on what the ULEZ will mean. Once it's in place, ULEZ support in Outer London will rapidly trend in the direction of support in areas that already have it. This happens all the time with environmental schemes that limit traffic and/or traffic pollution.

 

[SeatIbiza]

Doesn't bother me, my car is ULEZ compliant.

So are all my cars, but it's about control. This will run out to the rest of the country. We have 60mph on the M4 going past Heathrow for "air quality" - it's a complete farce. We have clean air in Birmingham, the very least of the worries that Birmingham has. Then, as we all get to these "clean" EV cars that take huge amounts of fossil fuels to build, then they have the system to tax that already in place. Where do you think they'll get the money to run their wasteful programmes and schemes. HS2...?

 

[Hades]

Exactly. Petrol cars from 2005 (18 years old max) and diesels from 2015 (8 years old). These can be picked up relatively cheaply.

Petrol is 2006. But ULEZ compliant cars in my area just bordering the expansion zone have increased in price while non-compliant cars have fallen.

 

[Mr Jack]

I expect Keir Starmer is leaning hard on Khan to delay the ULEZ expansion until after the next general election.

Starmer will want it dealt with as soon as possible so that it's removed as an issue.

 

[EGuitarStar]

I've got an older car (2009) and it is ULEZ compliant, my sister has a car that is from 2001 and it too is compliant. We both live in the areas where the expansion will take place.

I'd rather have clean air than drive a polluting car.

I understand that some businesses and people with older cars or diesel vehicles and I'll have to either pay the levy or seek a different vehicle with a financial burden on them. There are schemes in place to get help with that.

 

[sidimmu]

Seems the real problem is business' running in their last few years before retirement who dont want to spend out money on upgrading a vehicle, so instead of upgrading, paying the tax, adding it to operating costs, they'll decide to end doing business in that area? Logical and mature.

But ULEZ compliant cars in my area just bordering the expansion zone have increased in price while non-compliant cars have fallen.

Failing to prepare = preparing to fail.
Everyone knew this was going to come in one day or another, didnt take action before hand? Your own fault.

 

[Richie]

Petrol is 2006. But ULEZ compliant cars in my area just bordering the expansion zone have increased in price while non-compliant cars have fallen.

Not according to TFL:

Minimum emission standards​

Petrol: Euro 4 (NOx)
Diesel: Euro 6 (NOx and PM)

The ULEZ is enforced based on the declared emissions of the vehicle rather than the age. However:

• Petrol cars that meet the ULEZ standards are generally those first registered with the DVLA after 2005, although cars that meet the standards have been available since 2001
• Diesel cars that meet the standards are generally those first registered with the DVLA after September 2015

https://tfl.gov.uk/modes/driving/ultra-low-emission-zone/cars

What are the Euro standards and when did they come into effect?​

Euro standards are a range of emissions controls that set limits for air polluting Nitrogen Oxides (NOx) and Particulate Matter (PM) from engines. New vehicles and road vehicle engines must show that they meet these limits to be approved for sale:

• Euro 3 became mandatory for all new motorcycles in 2007
• Euro 4 became mandatory for all new cars in 2005 and light vans in 2006
• Euro 6 became mandatory for all new heavy duty engines for goods vehicles and buses from January 2014, September 2015 for cars and light vans, and September 2016 for larger vans up to and including 3.5 tonnes gross vehicle weight.

https://tfl.gov.uk/modes/driving/ultra-low-emission-zone/ways-to-meet-the-standard

So petrol cars from 2005

 

[Hades]

You mean the expansion that more people want than don't has been ruled lawful. +15% overall net support, +35% net support among people with experience of living in ULEZ zones, and equal support/oppose among people in outer London.

And that's despite a relentless barrage of hysterical misinformation on what the ULEZ will mean. Once it's in place, ULEZ support in Outer London will rapidly trend in the direction of support in areas that already have it. This happens all the time with environmental schemes that limit traffic and/or traffic pollution.

What I'm seeing in the survey you linked to is that while more people from inner London (who already have ULEZ so are unaffected by the expansion) are positive on expanding it, 6% more outer London residents (who will be affected by it) do not want it.

EDIT: Admittedly that is a far cry from my own anecdotal "no-one wants it".

 

[Hades]

Not according to TFL:


https://tfl.gov.uk/modes/driving/ultra-low-emission-zone/cars


https://tfl.gov.uk/modes/driving/ultra-low-emission-zone/ways-to-meet-the-standard

So petrol cars from 2005

Petrol cars after, not from 2005:

Petrol cars that meet the ULEZ standards are generally those first registered with the DVLA after 2005

If you search number plates of 2005/2006 cars on Autotrader you should see that anything registered from March 2006 will be compliant but those registered before March 2006 will not automatically be compliant.

 

[Nasher]

Seems the real problem is business' running in their last few years before retirement who dont want to spend out money on upgrading a vehicle, so instead of upgrading, paying the tax, adding it to operating costs, they'll decide to end doing business in that area? Logical and mature.

Failing to prepare = preparing to fail.
Everyone knew this was going to come in one day or another, didnt take action before hand? Your own fault.

But why would they bother with the expense of going in to London when they don't have to. Going to London is pure stress.

We have loads of jobs open in London because no one wants to move or commute there anymore. They would rather get paid less somewhere quieter and less oppressive. Eventually there will be a worker crisis in the city, how will they find enough cleaners etc to work there once the current generation retire.

 

[Stumble Bum]

Yes, so an absolute minority do care, not the absolute majority that @Hades claimed

I didn't say anything about it not being a minority. I know full well most cars are compliant. But those who this does affect they will be strongly against this. It's been very poorly thought out.

This is a money grab scheme that affects those who can least afford it.

 

[Mr Jack]

What I'm seeing in the survey you linked to is that while more people from inner London (who already have ULEZ so are unaffected by the expansion) are positive on expanding it, 6% more outer London residents (who will be affected by it) do not want it.

Sorry, I will correct the post, my bad (I was thinking of number from a different survey and didn't look closely). Either way, your "no one wants" is complete wrong, isn't it?

Yes, very slightly more people who have no experience of ULEZ think it will be bad, whilst those who have experienced it know it is good. As for being unaffected, the air quality across London is impacted by more polluting vehicles in outer London.

 

[Richie]

Petrol cars after, not from 2005:

Please provide the source of your quote:

Petrol cars that meet the ULEZ standards are generally those first registered with the DVLA after 2005

 

[sidimmu]

But why would they bother going with the expense of going in to London when they don't have to. Going to London is pure stress.

If they want to charge London prices or keep some certain contracts (depending on what they do), guess what, you got to go to London.

 

[jaybee]

Doesn't bother me, my car is ULEZ compliant.

• Petrol cars that meet the ULEZ standards are generally those first registered with the DVLA after 2005, although cars that meet the standards have been available since 2001
• Diesel cars that meet the standards are generally those first registered with the DVLA after September 2015

EDIT: Above quoted from TFL.GOV.UK



I do find it quite funny that I have a 2003 Focus that's worth about 2 pence which passes ULEZ but some 2015 Diesel cars will fail it.

Has anyone got any edge case interesting ones where high performance Diesel cars from around 2015 or just either side of it will fail it and hence drop in value massively?

 

[Hades]

Sorry, I will correct the post, my bad (I was thinking of number from a different survey and didn't look closely). Either way, your "no one wants" is complete wrong, isn't it?

Yes, clearly my "no-one wants it" is wrong based on views and evidence in this thread. I'm happy to admit that, although I've never yet met a person in real life who wants it.

 

[Firestar_3x]

The problem with ULEZ is the emissions target will be ever moving, so good luck when Euro 7 becomes the minimum standard vs how quickly they update the ULEZ rules.