London violence reaching epidemic proportions

[CREATIVE!11]

I suspect the causes are complex and compound. I won't volunteer a "reason" because I don't think you can simplify these things.

What do you mean you can't boil down complex societal issues to just "Bootstraps"?, I somewhat believe in some bootstraps but it's very complex and there is a lot more going on than just bootstraps alone. This is also coming from a guy himself who has just recently bootstrapped himself off disability following an accident to a full time software developer role.

 

[jigger]

If someone lives in a **** area, with **** parents, then I can certainly see where being either in a gang, or a victim of a gang becomes a thing. It must be hard to drag yourself out of such an environment.

Does that excuse lawlessness, no it doesn't.

Pretty much the issues as I found them.

 

[jigger]

Do they make us better off financially though?

Good question. We have been screwed pretty hard recently.

 

[potatolord]

Some people grow up in "bad" areas, with parents who are unable or unwilling to provide encouragement, support and correction when needed.

If you have school-age children you will probably be able to separate the sheep and goats. You can pretty much tell them apart at nursery age, and few cross over upwards by the end of secondary. That's been my experience.

The parents don't need to be high-fliers- just interested.

I was brought up with solid working class (yeah, I know) values and, after a period of stupid self destructive rebellion in my youth, I went back to those values.

In my opinion, parenting is the big culture issue.

There is no simple answer to this problem.

 

[Dis86]

So we lock them in museums and libraries until sufficiently cultivated?

How else do you think schools and universities work?

 

[FoxEye]

What do you mean you can't boil down complex societal issues to just "Bootstraps"?, I somewhat believe in some bootstraps but it's very complex and there is a lot more going on than just bootstraps alone. This is also coming from a guy himself who has just recently bootstrapped himself off disability following an accident to a full time software developer role.

Sure, I won't say that motivation and self-discipline don't also play a part - even a large part - in determining who succeeds and who doesn't. Of course, those things can be instilled by parents and upbringing, rather than self-taught (so many variables, aren't there...)

The point isn't that those qualities should be overlooked, just that it's not the whole story. The importance of environment as a factor is impossible to overstate. We can take two identical twins, instil into one self-belief, discipline, confidence.. and the other, break with abuse, neglect, and learned helplessness.

Can the latter bootstrap himself out of that hole? Maybe (some can, some can't). But better not to dig the hole in the first place, surely?

 

[CREATIVE!11]

The parents don't need to be high-fliers- just interested.

Yep you can even see it happen to wealthy kids I guess, if the parents show zero interest the kid can easily become a waster but they have the benefit of possibly (not always) having money/a fallback as a cushion.

 

[Dis86]

Yep you can even see it happen to wealthy kids I guess, if the parents show zero interest the kid can easily become a waster but they have the benefit of possibly (not always) having money/a fallback as a cushion.

Weird...thats what i pointed out before.

 

[CREATIVE!11]

Sure, I won't say that motivation and self-discipline don't also play a part - even a large part - in determining who succeeds and who doesn't. Of course, those things can be instilled by parents and upbringing, rather than self-taught (so many variables, aren't there...)

The point isn't that those qualities should be overlooked, just that it's not the whole story. The importance of environment as a factor is impossible to overstate. We can take two identical twins, instil into one self-belief, discipline, confidence.. and the other, break with abuse, neglect, and learned helplessness.

Can the latter bootstrap himself out of that hole? Maybe (some can, some can't). But better not to dig the hole in the first place, surely?

Environment plays a huge part tbh, as you said take two twins stick them both in vastly different environments see what happens. The outcome will be fairly obvious in a large percentage of cases I feel. Then you'll get the odd exception where the one who had all opportunities ends up looting stores.

 

[The Running Man]

What if that's true, on the part of the parents... Is it the children's fault? Like I said, not all parents are even interested in their kids. Some are abusive, some addicts, some just neglectful in the extreme.

That has a dramatic bearing on the child's outcomes. It's why we talk about cycles of abuse, cycles of poverty, etc. The kids often end up inheriting their parents' outlooks (and vices).

Conversely, having well-off, well-educated parents, who are invested in their child and pushing them to achieve... This also has a dramatic bearing on the child's outcomes, but in the opposite direction (positive).

I'm sure we aren't about to blame the 5 year old child if the parents decide to stick them in from of the TV or are never around to nurture or help them.

Again, all this "you are entirely the product of your own efforts" is an ideological leaning, one that is not borne out by real world data.

Do you think all children have a supportive home environment? You can't honestly believe that, surely.

You can't honestly believe either that a child's upbringing has no bearing on their life outcomes. It beggars belief if you do.

I agree but why are they having children with no thought to their future?

But at the same time the same parents will kick and scream when social services pay them a visit.

But this is a separate issue, how does someone become feral?

We can't turn back the clock on them, make them 5 again and give them a new life.

We can put people in prison for committing crimes and remove them from impacting normal people on their day to day.

If you want to come up with ideas how to fix the issue we have with single parent culture, non supportive parents etc do that and that could help us in 20-30 years from now. But right now we also need to protect everyone else from this 10%.

 

[jigger]

How else do you think schools and universities work?

I’m just not seeing the link between the two or how those places resolve the issue. Outside of the point for education of course, which I agree is part of the problem.

 

[Dis86]

So what do you think is the cause? We already know you don't think upbringing is a factor. That parents don't matter. That home environment doesn't matter.

You've said it's a black people problem - so why do you think that is?

Still not offering any answers, just vague handwaiving and laying the blame at society's/the governments door?

I think there are significant issues present within black culture in the uk (and the states). A huge problem being a lack of accountability for their own actions, youre highlighting this perfectly.
Black families are the most likely to be single parent - typically single mother. Again, lack of personal accountability.

Just take the recent crapfest over the stupid woman who wouldnt show her bus ticket, yet another perfect example of poor behaviour leading to an unnecessary outcome.

 

[jigger]

I agree but why are they having children with no thought to their future?

But at the same time the same parents will kick and scream when social services pay them a visit.

But this is a separate issue, how does someone become feral?

We can't turn back the clock on them, make them 5 again and give them a new life.

We can put people in prison for committing crimes and remove them from impacting normal people on their day to day.

If you want to come up with ideas how to fix the issue we have with single parent culture, non supportive parents etc do that and that could help us in 20-30 years from now. But right now we also need to protect everyone else from this 10%.

Yes, I think we are decades too late, maybe four generations too late. Some of these kids come from long lines of failure and are steeped in tradition. The die was cast long ago… We have to thank every government from at least Blair onward for this, including the current one.

Finding some way of breaking up this cycle of animals raising even worst animals would give a point to work from. The rest we just have to do our best and deal with.

It’s like a crazy irrational race to bottom of morality with far too much stupid dictating the route. Concentrated amounts of stupid is a powerful thing.

 

[Tony Edwards]

Still not offering any answers, just vague handwaiving and laying the blame at society's/the governments door?

I think there are significant issues present within black culture in the uk (and the states). A huge problem being a lack of accountability for their own actions, youre highlighting this perfectly.
Black families are the most likely to be single parent - typically single mother. Again, lack of personal accountability.

Just take the recent crapfest over the stupid woman who wouldnt show her bus ticket, yet another perfect example of poor behaviour leading to an unnecessary outcome.

So basicaly you are saying its because they are black because white people dont act like this?

Was it white culture that caused the jan 6th riot then?

 

[Dis86]

So basicaly you are saying its because they are black because white people dont act like this?

Tony, youd never understand.

 

[StriderX]

Still not offering any answers, just vague handwaiving and laying the blame at society's/the governments door?

I think there are significant issues present within black culture in the uk (and the states). A huge problem being a lack of accountability for their own actions, youre highlighting this perfectly.
Black families are the most likely to be single parent - typically single mother. Again, lack of personal accountability.

Just take the recent crapfest over the stupid woman who wouldnt show her bus ticket, yet another perfect example of poor behaviour leading to an unnecessary outcome.

That's surely not the mothers fault though is it and whilst it's not true for all of them I can't imagine they even have the time to parent (certainly in the US, though i'm sure they attempt to) with having to focus all attention on providing some sort of life even if the kid(s) don't care.

Doesn't seem too unusual now to see white fathers abandon their marriage either so not sure how long it will remain mostly an issue in certain demos.

 

[Dis86]

That's surely not the mothers fault though is it and whilst it's not true for all of them I can't imagine they even have the time to parent (certainly in the US) with having to focus all attention on providing some sort of life even if the kid(s) don't care.

Like i said, its lack of accountability. That aint the mother!

 

[bigmike20vt]

The parents don't need to be high-fliers- just interested.
.

this is very true... my dad left school at 14 not a qualification to his name. my mum has a couple of o levels....
but they still tried really hard to instill an academic work ethic into me.... I also worked with my dad doing basic manual labour. their view was I had a choice work hard at school or leave school and work for my dad (who was a self employed builder by that point).

a few things however.... I don't think people today with zero academic skills will get the opportunities he had.... on top of that I was able to go to uni without facing a massive debt at the end.... and finally like I said, despite overtaking them academically in my v early teens they still supported me..

parents are vitally important. what we have now seems to me to be reverse Darwinism.... the most successful people have either no kids or maybe one later in life where as statistically those who may be less supportive seem to have far more kids than they can support (yes wide brush I am painting with) .

how to stop this? I don't know. (well I do but human rights etc. (1 kid loads of child support, 2nd kid reduced child support unless you get the snip - then loads of child support) 3rd kid no support at all without the snip
cant see that being popular however (and has loopholes anyway).
personally I think it is utterly comtemptible to have more than 2 kids if you absolutely know you can't / don't want to look after them and will be fully reliant on the state however.

 

[Tony Edwards]

Tony, youd never understand.

Answer the question then.

Are the white people that are from single parent families or commit crime or do all the other socialy unacceptable things you lay at black cultures feet all part of black culture as well?

Or do you accept that white culture also has issues?

 

[The Running Man]

So basicaly you are saying its because they are black because white people dont act like this?

Was it white culture that caused the jan 6th riot then?

The pattern is the same across many countries.

That's not to say its inherent but if you were to compare say the USA, UK and other European countries.

Also seems to be a thing in African countries too.

Is it just a coincidence?