London violence reaching epidemic proportions

jigger said:
The relocation of our police might help. Instead of clocking off to middle class suburbs, let’s have them live in the areas they patrol. Get to know the community proper. Maybe even a redistribution of society.
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You should think this through and realise what a daft idea that is.

Imagine yourself living and policing in the same area. It wouldn't be long until your home address is known or you bump into people you have arrested (or their friends/families)

What's going to happen when they realise you're working and therefore your home is empty or your partner/kids are there, or you're off duty and bump into them with no PPE or backup?

Even if you are at home, are you going to sleep soundly hearing noises outside?

Policing and living in the leafy suburbs may be ok, but you want the same in the crime ridden areas as well?
 
Dis86 said:
Again, they have the same access to education and culture as everyone else. The only thing stopping them taking full advantage is themselves.
Hence why people from exceptionally privileged backgrounds can turn in to scum.
We're not talking about everyone becoming millionaires, we're talking about them being functional members of society.
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Only If you somehow conclude that your parents, your upbringing, your environment... doesn't matter at all.

That's not reality.
 
Well the truth is this, if the parents don't think that they are being offered a good enough standard of life or educational opportunities for their children...

They could always move to a different area.

They could always move to another country.

Except you realise that in the UK the standard of living, education, health care system, opportunities that are rarely matched globally.

It's just that these opportunities are purposely being squandered rather than embraced.
 
I think a lot of this has to do with the Tories playing silly buggers with police cuts and hiring. They cut 20,000 and then eventually hired 20,000 back, but how much experience and trust was lost between all of that happening?

How much did the policing culture erode in that time? A lot it seems - even with the re-increased numbers theft even in the value of hundreds of pounds plus etc. anecdotal reports still seem to get a "there's nothing we can do" response even if it's a trackable phone.
 
FoxEye said:
Only If you somehow conclude that your parents, your upbringing, your environment... doesn't matter at all.

That's not reality.
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And the environment is one where they have access to all of those things...
They are not in some backwater town or third world country.

Out of curiosity, why do you think the vast vast majority of the people in these instances are black?
 
The Running Man said:
Well the truth is this, if the parents don't think that they are being offered a good enough standard of life or educational opportunities for their children...

They could always move to a different area.

They could always move to another country.

Except you realise that in the UK the standard of living, education, health care system, opportunities that are rarely matched globally.

It's just that these opportunities are purposely being squandered rather than embraced.
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What if that's true, on the part of the parents... Is it the children's fault? Like I said, not all parents are even interested in their kids. Some are abusive, some addicts, some just neglectful in the extreme.

That has a dramatic bearing on the child's outcomes. It's why we talk about cycles of abuse, cycles of poverty, etc. The kids often end up inheriting their parents' outlooks (and vices).

Conversely, having well-off, well-educated parents, who are invested in their child and pushing them to achieve... This also has a dramatic bearing on the child's outcomes, but in the opposite direction (positive).

I'm sure we aren't about to blame the 5 year old child if the parents decide to stick them in from of the TV or are never around to nurture or help them.

Again, all this "you are entirely the product of your own efforts" is an ideological leaning, one that is not borne out by real world data.
Dis86 said:
And the environment is one where they have access to all of those things...
They are not in some backwater town or third world country.

Out of curiosity, why do you think the vast vast majority of the people in these instances are black?
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Do you think all children have a supportive home environment? You can't honestly believe that, surely.

You can't honestly believe either that a child's upbringing has no bearing on their life outcomes. It beggars belief if you do.
 
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FoxEye said:
What if that's true, on the part of the parents... Is it the children's fault? Like I said, not all parents are even interested in their kids. Some are abusive, some addicts, some just neglectful in the extreme.

That has a dramatic bearing on the child's outcomes. It's why we talk about cycles of abuse, cycles of poverty, etc. The kids often end up inheriting their parents' outlooks (and vices).

Conversely, having well-off, well-educated parents, who are invested in their child and pushing them to achieve... This also has a dramatic bearing on the child's outcomes, but in the opposite direction (positive).

I'm sure we aren't about to blame the 5 year old child if the parents decide to stick them in from of the TV or are never around to nurture or help them.

Again, all this "you are entirely the product of your own efforts" is an ideological leaning, one that is not borne out by real world data.

Do you think all children have a supportive home environment? You can't honestly believe that, surely.

You can't honestly believe either that a child's upbringing has no bearing on their life outcomes. It beggars belief if you do.
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Youve not answered the question i asked.
 
Dis86 said:
No no, you seemed confident that you know what the reasons are for this behaviour so you must know why its specific demographics only.
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Me: "You cannot discount human and environmental factors. Upbringing, etc."
You: "Then you must know exactly why this happens! Otherwise your argument is invalid!"

I think I'll leave it there. We have nothing more to say to each other, I suspect.
 
The Running Man said:
Well the truth is this, if the parents don't think that they are being offered a good enough standard of life or educational opportunities for their children...

They could always move to a different area.

They could always move to another country.

Except you realise that in the UK the standard of living, education, health care system, opportunities that are rarely matched globally.

It's just that these opportunities are purposely being squandered rather than embraced.
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Easy to say if you're not poor.
 
FoxEye said:
Me: "You cannot discount human and environmental factors. Upbringing, etc."
You: "Then you must know exactly why this happens! Otherwise your argument is invalid!"

I think I'll leave it there. We have nothing more to say to each other, I suspect.
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If you know you cant discount them, you must know why you cant.
You must also know why it affects one demographic disproportionately.
 
Dis86 said:
If you know you cant discount them, you must know why you cant.
You must also know why it affects one demographic disproportionately.
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So what do you think is the cause? We already know you don't think upbringing is a factor. That parents don't matter. That home environment doesn't matter.

You've said it's a black people problem - so why do you think that is?

Dis86 said:
Out of curiosity, why do you think the vast vast majority of the people in these instances are black?
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SonicSW20 said:
Easy to say if you're not poor.
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Depends on their situation, if someone owns property in London, then they can probably move.

If not, whether in council or social housing then it's more complicated.

I can see most earners being pushed out of London eventually, it's basically for wealthy foreigners and elites only.
 
Richie said:
You should think this through and realise what a daft idea that is.

Imagine yourself living and policing in the same area. It wouldn't be long until your home address is known or you bump into people you have arrested (or their friends/families)

What's going to happen when they realise you're working and therefore your home is empty or your partner/kids are there, or you're off duty and bump into them with no PPE or backup?

Even if you are at home, are you going to sleep soundly hearing noises outside?

Policing and living in the leafy suburbs may be ok, but you want the same in the crime ridden areas as well?
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You should think this through and realise the point is to change people behaviour. that’s what we are looking to achieve.
 
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Dis86 said:
And the environment is one where they have access to all of those things...
They are not in some backwater town or third world country.

Out of curiosity, why do you think the vast vast majority of the people in these instances are black?
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So we lock them in museums and libraries until sufficiently cultivated?
 
If someone lives in a **** area, with **** parents, then I can certainly see where being either in a gang, or a victim of a gang becomes a thing. It must be hard to drag yourself out of such an environment.

Does that excuse lawlessness, no it doesn't.
 
The way I see is we elect government with a plan to deal with some very nuanced issues and cross our fingers. Or we elect a government that maintains the status quo keep moaning. One makes us safer the other a little better off financially. We should abandon the idea someone can deliver both.
 
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