Making a murderer - The Avery case (Spoilers)

[ACJL]

That's why there is a reward to find it oh dear...

I get that obviously, but there is nothing to find dude. She has nothing even after 3 years. Her "experts" didnt find anything to free him, because its all connected to him. This bogus offer wont change a thing. Nobody's gonna pay. Nobody will find anything that leads to a conviction. Its tripe. But ur welcome to believe otherwise.

 

[ACJL]

Who cares?

It'll be denied again and again, over and over, at every level - because it's ridiculous. There's no new evidence, no other explanation that makes sense - because Avery is obviously guilty and right where he needs to be - only a fool would come to any other conclusion.

Kathleen Zellner and her multimillion dollar team of pseudoscience-charlatans, combined with lying Netflix film makers and an armchair community of Reddit conspiracy theorists, couldn't do it in three years, what makes you think things will be different this time?

Perhaps it's you who needs a few lessons in how things go?

Well said

 

[esoteric]

Just to make something clear for those who can't read, extrapolate evidence or follow a story, the money is not from Kathleens pocket but a 'concerned citizen'.

It took 10 years for one of her previous clients, Ryan Ferguson to be set free and the obstacle was simply getting his case back into court just as it is with Avery. She's been on the Avery case for 3 years?

The deadset mindset of some people on here truly terrorfies me

 

[Felon]

Just to make something clear for those who can't read, extrapolate evidence or follow a story, the money is not from Kathleens pocket but a 'concerned citizen'.

It took 10 years for one of her previous clients, Ryan Ferguson to be set free and the obstacle was simply getting his case back into court just as it is with Avery. She's been on the Avery case for 3 years?

The deadset mindset of some people on here truly terrorfies me

Who cares where it comes from?

Kathleen Zellner is in this whole thing for herself, she's clever, manipulative and she'll stop at nothing to propagate a narrative that suits her ends, and her ends only. As far as this mysterious $100k goes, it was announced wholly by Kathleen Zellner and her 'team' as for 'concerned citizen' that's vague enough that it could mean just about anything you want it to mean, as far as I can tell it's deliberately non-specific - but it wouldn't surprise me if Zellner is intimately involved with it.

As for deadset mindset, the only people who are suffering from that fall into two camps;

1. Conspiracy theorists
2. People who haven't properly considered the evidence and people who only watched the documentaries.

Anybody who is unbiased and takes the time to properly consider the actual evidence, in a clinical calm and logical fashion, will ultimately conclude that Steven Avery is guilty, because there is no other explanation that adds up or makes sense, without resorting to insane conspiracy theories, all of which are easily destroyed with the slightest scrutiny.

My take on the $100k announcement is as follows;

Despite making a lot of money out of having her own show in making a murderer season 2, she's actually got absolutely nowhere in terms of freeing Avery. Almost all of the so called 'exonerating evidence' shown in season 2 was absolutely nothing of the sort, and as such never even made it into any of the motions to free Avery, the furthest it went was onto the Netflix TV screen - no further, because it was mostly pseudoscience and complete conspiracy theorist nonsense. This is the case because she has nothing else, because there is nothing else.

Off the back of that, this $100k announcement just looks like a fresh attempt to gain some more publicity and some more clicks - Kathleen Zellner knows Avery is guilty, she's just continuing to milk the cow, and will do as long as it makes her some money.

Don't ever forget, Zellner palmed off Avery for years, it was only when she realised how it could be turned into a business opportunity for her, off the back of the first season of making a murderer, that she decided to get involved - as a business decision it's worked wonders for her, but as for Avery he's still exactly where he needs to be, behind bars.

 

[Kill_Phil]

@Screeeech whislt he no doubt fits the bill this time round the sheer incompetence of the police force will always leave the verdict open to question

 

[Felon]

@Screeeech whislt he no doubt fits the bill this time round the sheer incompetence of the police force will always leave the verdict open to question

Actually, in terms of them being incompetent (because elements of incompetence were certainly present) - that creates an even bigger problem, if you're going to implicate them as being in some way responsible for framing Avery.

It would take an almost monumentally competent police force, an untold amount of coordination, skill and talent to pull this off as a framing, without any of the following things happening deliberately or by mistake;

• Being caught stealing from Avery's blood sample (already disproven)
• Being caught either murdering, or conspiring to murder Halbach,
• Being caught or seen burning Halbach's remains, on the Avery residence when they were all in.
• Being caught or seen dismembering and disposing of Halbach's body, in or around the Avery residence into the burn barrels.
• Being caught planting and / or moving Halbach's Rav4 around on the Avery junk yard without being seen
• Being caught removing and planting the plates from Halbach's Rav4 on the Avery Junk yard
• Being caught, contaminating or messing up the planting of Avery's blood inside the car, in up to six different locations
• Being caught, or messing up the planting of skin-cell DNA on the hood latch
• Being caught planting Halbach's DNA on the bullet fragment (they admitted messing up the control sample voluntarily)
• Taking Steven Avery's gun from his trailer, firing rounds through it - then planting them in the garage without ever being seen or heard by anybody
• Being caught planting the key to her Rav4 in Avery's trailer
• Somehow getting Steven Avery to change his initial version of events three times at the time when he was first questioned, to make him looks very suspicious (purely by good luck)
• Somehow getting Steven Avery to change his version of events surrounding the fire (he said he didn't have one, then later changed his version to say he did have one that night)
• Breaking into Avery's garage, pouring bleach all over the place so that it would later test positive with luminol, again without being seen.
• Somehow conveniently getting Brendan Dassey's jeans covered in bleach, right after he confessed to cleaning up the garage with....... wait for it....... BLEACH!
• All the people who were involved in this theorised planting of evidence have all managed to stay 100% silent for years, without blabbing to the media for an obvious amount of $$$$$$$

You have all of that, then one big hilarious one;

• Purely by good luck, Brendan Dassey provides a written, taped and video'd detailed confession, on three separate occasions, then later; even confessing to his own mother on a prison phone call.

If there's a police force out there, who could fabricate all of the above, who's not only competent enough to pull it off, without being detected, and also not ever talk about it to anybody ever. But also lucky enough that the main defendant (Steven Avery) lies and changes his initial version, followed by his nephew giving a full detailed confession which adds up, then I'll be very surprised... (to put it lightly)

 

[Kill_Phil]

@Screeeech easy tiger, don't worry I'm not a mad conspiracst and the evidence all points to avery.

Its the incompetence and laziness of the first conviction im on about and will always leave the question, well if they got it so wrong the first time what about a second?

I guess the sad thing is, if they had got it right first time would he of gone onto kill and would halbach still be alive today.

 

[ACJL]

Just to make something clear for those who can't read, extrapolate evidence or follow a story, the money is not from Kathleens pocket but a 'concerned citizen'.

It took 10 years for one of her previous clients, Ryan Ferguson to be set free and the obstacle was simply getting his case back into court just as it is with Avery. She's been on the Avery case for 3 years?

The deadset mindset of some people on here truly terrorfies me

the "i have a different opinion because i read better than u guys" argument.

Steven is guilty so there is no new evidence to be found, by anyone. Not Zellner. Not a "concerned citizen". Therefor Zellner or anyone can promise any amount of money. Nobody's gonna pay anyway

 

[Felon]

@Screeeech easy tiger, don't worry I'm not a mad conspiracst and the evidence all points to avery.

Its the incompetence and laziness of the first conviction im on about and will always leave the question, well if they got it so wrong the first time what about a second?

I guess the sad thing is, if they had got it right first time would he of gone onto kill and would halbach still be alive today.

The biggest problem with the original conviction I don't think was 100% down to police incompetence, but the witness Penny Bernstein herself.

In the trial, it was her - not the police who identified Steven Avery, first via a photograph then secondly at the trial, again it was her - who singled out and identified incorrectly, that Steven Avery was the actual attacker.

Whilst his alibi's seemed legit, the jury didn't think so - and paid too much attention to the incorrect witness testimony of Penny Bernstein.

So, I don't think it's fair to pin the incorrect conviction squarely with police incompetence, they had the witness directly singling out and pointing at Steven Avery when presented with his picture (remember, he was a known offender in the area who had a very similar description)

To be fair, defence counsel could have been terrible - but with this happening in 1985 in the absence of any DNA testing, faced with a victim who was sure they had her attacker in the dock - it probably was quite easy for the Jury to reach the verdict they did.

 

[esoteric]

the "i have a different opinion because i read better than u guys" argument

wtf even is this................ there is no opinion to be had, it's fact, the money isn't Kathleen's.

Aahhh I see you are new here.. posting absolute blocks to get the free shipping are you?

 

[ACJL]

wtf even is this................ there is no opinion to be had, it's fact, the money isn't Kathleen's.

Aahhh I see you are new here.. posting absolute blocks to get the free shipping are you?

Not really new in terms of time. What free shipping?

 

[ACJL]

The biggest problem with the original conviction I don't think was 100% down to police incompetence, but the witness Penny Bernstein herself.

I agree. Also, there was an impartial witness who gave testimony that contradicted what the defense's (partial) witnesses stated. The testimonies of the defense's witnesses also all sounded very much the same.

 

[Felon]

wtf even is this................ there is no opinion to be had, it's fact, the money isn't Kathleen's.

Hang on, correct me if I'm wrong - but there's absolutely no information anywhere as to exactly who is offering this $100k 'reward' it's just some stuff posted on Zellner's twitter.

As far as I'm concerned, in the absence of any other information - I suspect Zellner posted the whole thing to get some clicks, it's not like anybody is going to be losing sleep about having to pony up $100k to some random private detective any time soon is it?

The one thing that amazes me, is that people still haven't realised that Kathleen Zellner is absolutely in this for the money, knows that Avery is guilty, enjoys the limelight - and will do anything to stay in it. If she has to occasionally post some rubbish on twitter to keep things in the limelight, she absolutely will - she's an attorney, she knows what she can get away with.

This whole $100k reward is just vague, non-specific, unverifiable and as far as I can tell - bogus. And nobody is in any position to say that it isn't anything to do with Zellner.

 

[esoteric]

Who cares where it comes from?

Kathleen Zellner is in this whole thing for herself, she's clever, manipulative and she'll stop at nothing to propagate a narrative that suits her ends, and her ends only. As far as this mysterious $100k goes, it was announced wholly by Kathleen Zellner and her 'team' as for 'concerned citizen' that's vague enough that it could mean just about anything you want it to mean, as far as I can tell it's deliberately non-specific - but it wouldn't surprise me if Zellner is intimately involved with it.

As for deadset mindset, the only people who are suffering from that fall into two camps;

1. Conspiracy theorists
2. People who haven't properly considered the evidence and people who only watched the documentaries.

Hang on, correct me if I'm wrong - but there's absolutely no information anywhere as to exactly who is offering this $100k 'reward' it's just some stuff posted on Zellner's twitter.

As far as I'm concerned, in the absence of any other information - I suspect Zellner posted the whole thing to get some clicks, it's not like anybody is going to be losing sleep about having to pony up $100k to some random private detective any time soon is it?

The one thing that amazes me, is that people still haven't realised that Kathleen Zellner is absolutely in this for the money, knows that Avery is guilty, enjoys the limelight - and will do anything to stay in it. If she has to occasionally post some rubbish on twitter to keep things in the limelight, she absolutely will - she's an attorney, she knows what she can get away with.

This whole $100k reward is just vague, non-specific, unverifiable and as far as I can tell - bogus. And nobody is in any position to say that it isn't anything to do with Zellner.

Well you fit into part 1 atleast, 100% and you're half of part 2 "People who haven't properly considered the evidence"

You've got all these conspiratorial ideas about Kathleen but any notion about a conspiracy against Steven Avery it's "Nah man its all about dem bones innit, only way they are under his window is cuz he put em there dawg case closed /sunglasses"

It's incredible. Really.

 

[Felon]

Well you fit into part 1 atleast, 100% and you're half of part 2 "People who haven't properly considered the evidence"

You've got all these conspiratorial ideas about Kathleen but any notion about a conspiracy against Steven Avery it's "Nah man its all about dem bones innit, only way they are under his window is cuz he put em there dawg case closed /sunglasses"

It's incredible. Really.

I'm not alluding to any conspiracy theory around Zellner at all - because there's no attempt at a cover up, she just talks nonsense, engages in dubious practices in order to prove points, that only stand up for a gullible Netflix audience, and nobody else.

If you want to talk about conspiracy theories, there is one definite conspiracy theory that conned nearly all of Reddit, along with half of the people on here. It's a conspiracy theory that has now landed the Making a murder film makers in court, because it ruined Andrew Colborn's life.

It relates to how the making a murderer film makers, used creative editing techniques to modify, (essentially cut and paste) the audio and video of the original court testimony. It culminated in Andrew Colborn's testimony being rigged so that he answered questions that in the documentary - which never actually happened in court, specifically around the testimony surrounding the 'planting of the Rav4' when he read her license plate back to despatch over his radio.

The court records prove that the Netflix film makers altered his testimony, so that he provided some answers which were very odd, within the context of the Rav4 planting theory that the defence were peddling;

These are the two exchanges of the same thing, the first is from the original case file, the second is what the Netflix audience saw;

Original court testimony;

Q. Well, and you can understand how someone listening to that might think that you were calling in a license plate that you were looking at on the back end of a 1999 Toyota; from listening to that tape, you can understand why someone might think that, can't you?

ATTORNEY KRATZ: It's a conclusion, Judge. He's conveying the problems to the jury.

THE COURT: I agree, the objection is sustained.

Q. This call sounded like hundreds of other license plate or registration checks you have done through dispatch before?

A. Yes.

Q. But there's no way you should have been looking at Teresa Halbach's license plate on November three, on the back end of a 1999 Toyota

ATTORNEY KRATZ: Asked and answered your honor; he already he said he didn't and was not looking at the license plate.

THE COURT: Sustained

Q. There's no way you should have been, is there?

A. I shouldn't have been and I was not looking at the license plate.

Netflix creative editing;

Q. Well, and you can understand how someone listening to that might think that you were calling in a license plate that you were looking at on the back end of a 1999 Toyota; from listening to that tape, you can understand why someone might think that, can't you?

A. Yes.

Q. But there's no way you should have been looking at Teresa Halbach's license plate on November three, on the back end of a 1999 Toyota

A. I shouldn't have been and I was not looking at the license plate.

[Theme music plays and the episode ends, leaving the whole thing hanging in the air]

How do you explain the behavior of the Netflix film makers, what do you think their motive was in doing this? (Bear in mind, they're being dragged into court because of this)

 

[Scam]

There's not much difference. He's still denying he was looking at the licence plate yet he's reading it as if he was. Where's he reading it from? Why did he call it in? Wheres the transcript of that being answered by Colborn?

 

[ColdAsIce]

He did call in asking about the plate number though? Before the car was found yea?

 

[ACJL]

He did call in asking about the plate number though? Before the car was found yea?

Yes, but after he was informed about Halbach and her car by Calumet.

 

[Felon]

He did call in asking about the plate number though? Before the car was found yea?

There's not much difference. He's still denying he was looking at the licence plate yet he's reading it as if he was. Where's he reading it from? Why did he call it in? Wheres the transcript of that being answered by Colborn?

So in the court transcripts here; http://www.stevenaverycase.org/wp-c...-Trial-Transcript-Day-7-2007Feb20.pdf#page=64 around page 184, Colborn (whilst under cross examination by Avery's lawyer) basically says he probably got the license plate number from the detective (Weitgart) it's basically normal procedure for an officer in the field, to receive information from other investigators (reports of missing persons, license plates to check etc) for the patrol officer to call dispatch to check the information they've been given. Colborn and the court essentially agree that this sort of thing happens thousands of times for all patrol officers.

When Netflix altered the testimony and made it bogus on purpose, they did so in a way which threw a lot of extra doubt onto Colborn's testimony, essentially he agrees with the defence that what he did was a little odd, when in reality - he never answered that question at all, because the exchange was completely different. This is how the entire conspiracy theory around the license plate was created, because when you read the actual court transcript, there's nothing really suspicious about it. But when you read the fake version created by Netflix, it comes across as a little more troubling.

And there's a bigger point here that needs to be considered, has anybody ever wondered why Avery's defense team decided to pursue the narrative that the police had planted everything? That the whole of Manitowoc county was after Avery, had apparently planted the blood, planted the car, planted the bullet, planted the DNA and so on?

The first reason is................ They had nothing else.... the defense team (Strang / Buting) knew Avery was guilty, all the evidence pointed to him being guilty, they had no other option other than to go for the ridiculous narrative that everything was planted and faked to frame him, because there was no other evidence they should use to get him off the hook.

The second reason is.......... Money!...... in the wake of his exoneration for the rape of Penny Bernstein, Avery settled for a much smaller amount of around $400k, so Strang and Buting knew that Avery had money to spend on a legal defense - so they spent it all for him and wasted a whole bunch of time fighting a case they were always going to lose, but always going to be paid to lose. In the end, pursuing some cockamamie story about planting and framing was just a reason for them to take the whole thing to trial and get paid a load of money out of Avery's pocket. Even if they did look a little stupid in the process (the blood vial embarrassment)

Any defense lawyer worth his salt, would have told Avery to plead guilty, because it's >obvious< he's guilty, but that doesn't cost much in legal defense does it?

 

[deuse]

Who cares?

And there we have it.

I hope you are never called up for jury duty.

And I see that ACJL only posts in this thread.....hmmmm

I see that ACJL has posted in other forums about this......starts digging