Malaysia Grand Prix 2012, Kuala Lumpur - Race 2/20

FrankJH said:
That "bit of luck" being a McLaren and Redbull retirement as these teams clearly have similar/ better quali pace and much better race pace. Even MW is keeping up with Seb in the races so without significant abnormal races I cant see Merc getting on the podium currently (of course with 3 weeks until the next race they will have upgrades, let alone later in the season)

This doesnt even include one of two or three mid field teams leapfrogging Merc on absolute pace either (as it were "on their day"). Merc are great in quali, thanks to the new system, but as it makes little difference in the race Im not entirely sure how much it helps as they go slowly backwards on Sundays
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That's the exact idea I was alluding to, yep :). It is a bit of a worry for them that they seem to fall backwards during the race, however like I say, they haven't really had a fair crack of the whip so I would say the jury is still out, especially because of the results Ferrari have had and their car certainly looks slower and less stable than the Merc.
 
Assuming China is dry, it should be a good indicator of the actual performance of all the cars. Then lots of new bits start being glued to them and it could all change again :)
 
Panzerbjorn said:
On any given race day there are countless instances of clean wheel-to-wheel battles around corners and yet somehow last year the ones that went wrong seemed to invariably involve Massa and usually, but not exclusively, Hamilton.
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Who else did Massa collide with last season? And who else did Lewis collide with last season? Massa v Jenson in Malaysia was hard fair and good racing by both of them, to call foul on such on track action is baffling to me, it's something that every fan wants to see more off I thought.
 
Skeeter said:
Ferrari are way back and they have won a race. Merc getting a podium or a win isn't impossible.
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In highly unusual circumstances ......

To expect the same amount of highly un-usual circumstances AND have te Merc do well in the same race (given how many cars can currently finish ahead of them in the race).......I would suggest currently those should be very long odds

schumi84 said:
That's the exact idea I was alluding to, yep :). It is a bit of a worry for them that they seem to fall backwards during the race, however like I say, they haven't really had a fair crack of the whip so I would say the jury is still out, especially because of the results Ferrari have had and their car certainly looks slower and less stable than the Merc.
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Refers you to what I just posted

You have a valid pov of course - I just think that niehter driver is currently as good as Alonso, so that has to be taken account of (in regards to Ferrari comparison) and while Schumi has had a retirement and a spin, he also didnt show that much pace when he was able to

Fair enough jury is out...but I still think significant upgrades are the only way Merc will end up on the podium currently

Skeeter said:
I now have a mental image of the sound of selotape ripping and PVA glue being poured coming from the HRT garage :D
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Sig worthy :)
 
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Mr Men said:
Who else did Massa collide with last season? And who else did Lewis collide with last season? Massa v Jenson in Malaysia was hard fair and good racing by both of them, to call foul on such on track action is baffling to me, it's something that every fan wants to see more off I thought.
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<facetious mode>Mark webber for one.</facetious mode> :p

It's not just last season, Japan in 2010, Australia in 2012 — he's a liability. Although I'm sure you'll prove that neither of those incidents were his fault.

Anyway, there wasn't enough time for him to hit anyone else last season, it was always Hamilton! :D

More to the point, there's been plenty of times when it hasn't resulted in an accident but that's more to do with the other driver bailing out of the corner than anything else. Button in Australia last year leading up to the incident that earned him a drive-through is a good example.

I know JB didn't have a problem with it, you've told us more than once, it's just my opinion.

Dropping the Massa-bashing for a moment; I do want to see more on-track action. I don't want to see someone's race getting ruined because one driver thinks they are entitled to own the whole track. This isn't NASCAR, there's more to it than crashes and explosions.

I'm not naive, there's always a chance of a collision, an element of risk. However, I maintain that there's a difference between defending a corner and purposefully driving another car off the track.
 
Skeeter said:
Assuming were talking about the Kobayashi incident at Les Combes at Spa, that was most definitely Lewis' own doing.
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About 3 days later DC looked at all the views and saw that Koby did not back off after an overtake
and turned in to Lewis..so have a go at them ;)

You can see Koby turning in to Lewis http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jJpcIvhOwy8
No I mean it email or tweet DC or MC :)
 
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Panzerbjorn said:
<facetious mode>Mark webber for one.</facetious mode> :p

It's not just last season, Japan in 2010, Australia in 2012 — he's a liability. Although I'm sure you'll prove that neither of those incidents were his fault.

Anyway, there wasn't enough time for him to hit anyone else last season, it was always Hamilton! :D
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Your hatred for him clearly clouds any sort of sense in your posts about him. Yes Massa hit Lewis every time last season, none of them were Lewis hitting into Massa, oh yeah that's why Lewis was at the stewards nearly every 2nd race, but oh well no point even debating with someone blinkered with hatred :)
 
It's interesting that the Hamilton fan-bois are making excuses for Lewis. The truth is that as a top driver, it is your responsibility to stay out of a trouble. Sure, we can apportion blame to other drivers (that may well be the case and I'm not going to argue this), but Lewis has not helped his cause by placing himself in these situations.

For instance, against Koba, in Spa, he should've known that there was a chance for an incident. Hence, it is best to turn in early OR stay closer to the right hand side of the track. It would've been a simple overtake, but both drivers must've had brain-fade.

In the situations regarding Massa, when you know, as a driver that there is history, you have to be extra careful. Why take risks against Massa when you know that he may be a little reckless? Best way to overtake Massa is to be patient, wait till you hit the DRS section and then overtake him nice and safely. Why did Lewis have to take on the risk over taking him a few corners earlier?

A top driver should understand these points. Lewis, at this point in time, does not.

My own feeling is that this is simply down to intelligence or lack thereof. The best way to deal with this is to have a big brother type figure on the pit-wall and if Hamilton is looking like making a silly error, to have a simple word in his ear. Nothing more. I actually think that somebody like Rob Smedley would do well as Hamilton's radio man, as he doesn't mince his words and won't be afraid to tell Hamilton to calm down if need be.
 
Regarding Massa, as I said earlier, he is overly "keen" on retaining track position and this is borne out of his insecurities - these are driven by his unfortunate injury and the resolute hammering he gets from Alonso every weekend.

Not meaning to repeat myself (again), but I firmly believe he would be better off at a lesser team with a lesser teammate, where he can begin to regain some of his confidence.

That said, racing is great and is good to see but it can be achieved with less incidents than Massa appears to get into. Two quick examples -

Button vs. Hamilton last year (China ) is a prime example, with Button recognising the move and pulling out on the corner at the end of the straight.

Schumacher vs. Hamilton last year (Monaco) is another example, with Schumi recognising the move.

Interesting in the Monaco example, later in the race Hamilton pulled an almost identical move on Maldonado who did not pull out, resulting in Maldonado being put out of the race and LH being penalised (memory shady on LH penalty)

Considering the response to an overtake with Maldonado vs. Schumacher, I'm not sure if all of that was down to experience or some small part a desperation to retain position - a la Massa.

Anyway, if drivers want to get an overtake done, they have to put themselves in awkward positions from time to time (especially outside of DRS zones). Part of that relies on the other driver recognising the overtake and avoiding a collision, while not giving it away for free - that in itself is a skill, perhaps which Massa just doesn't have enough of.

edit: to clarify, I do not dislike Massa, I just think he needs to up his game. Lewis chose his overtakes poorly at times last season and is culpable in a number of incidents. However, I dislike drivers the close the door on a good overtake, causing a collision in the process. Webber is someone else who has a habit of that...again with Lewis on a number of occasions.
 
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deuse said:
Take a look at the replays it shows that they hit Lewis..but don't let facts get in the way ;)
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I was merely stating other times where Hamilton had been involved in collisions, I wasn't stating if they were his fault or not..... but don't let assumptions get in the way ;)
 
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Tenzo said:
... I firmly believe he would be better off at a lesser team with a lesser teammate, where he can begin to regain some of his confidence.
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I'll go along with that.

The only problem here is that he will have to take a pay-cut and he will lose his profile. I'm sure that he gets a lot of sponsorships/income by virtue of the fact that he is a Ferrari driver.

When you have a kid and family to think of, it's not easy to leave Ferrari for a lesser team and possibly vanish into obscurity.
 
sunama said:
I'll go along with that.

The only problem here is that he will have to take a pay-cut and he will lose his profile. I'm sure that he gets a lot of sponsorships/income by virtue of the fact that he is a Ferrari driver.

When you have a kid and family to think of, it's not easy to leave Ferrari for a lesser team and possibly vanish into obscurity.
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Make or break, no doubt about that. Staying where he is though is doing him absolutely no favours at all, not at the moment.

If he can up his game, bang in a couple of top 6 finishes then things will be looking a whole lot rosier. Get close to Alonso on the track and all of a sudden, we all take him a touch more seriously.

Either way, he' still in the top 0.00000001% of drivers out there, that is nothing to be sniffed at :)
 
Tenzo said:
Regarding Massa, as I said earlier, he is overly "keen" on retaining track position and this is borne out of his insecurities - these are driven by his unfortunate injury and the resolute hammering he gets from Alonso every weekend.
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What makes you think it has anything to do with his injury? An injury that he doesn't even remember. It's just pure speculation.

Whilst he hasn't hasn't scored as higher positions as he did before his injury, the two periods can't be compared as everything else is different. The cars are different, the team is different even, his competition is different (closer, faster).

I will accept that Massa 'appears' to be lacking confidence - however appearences can be deciving, we have no idea how confident he is or isn't.

As ever, what can be asserted without proof can be dismissed without proof.
 
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