Malaysia Grand Prix 2012, Kuala Lumpur - Race 2/20

Skeeter said:
Who said anything about being better than Alonso? Were talking about Massa :confused:
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As usual ignore the key question and veer away :)

Name the driver to replace Massa as a better car developer.

Alonso is relevant because he leads the team and you are the one suggesting Massa is not holding his weight compared to Alonso in developing, so why would they want worse?

Also what percentage do you attach on developing the car between the drivers and the engineers? for example 80% drivers 20% engineers. What would you say?
 
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Tenzo said:
90% of discussion in this thread is speculation, supposition, theories and opinion. It's what makes it so much fun.

Do you not think that the injury would have some small effect on his confidence?
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Yes, though many of us posting act as though what we're saying is fact.

In my opinion, I don't think that the accident affected his confidence as he actually came back from it very well with a 2nd place in the opening GP, then a 3rd place in Aus. In total he had 4 podiums and 13 top 10 finishes.

The biggest changes since then are a) The car isn't as good b) the calibre of competition is higher.
 
It would be a lot easier to answer the question if it didn't keep changing.

I don't know who should replace Massa, I've said this right from the off. But Ferrari do have a large pool of drivers out there they can pick from. I'm suggesting they should start looking.

Of course the ideal would be for them to have 2 Alonsos. But since human cloning is illegal that can't happen. But Ferrari don't need to replace Massa with someone better than Alonso, they need to replace Massa with someone better than Massa.

Alonso is doing a stirling job on his own, but even at maximum he is still only going to be able to deliver 50% of the teams full potential.
 
Skeeter said:
It would be a lot easier to answer the question if it didn't keep changing.

I don't know who should replace Massa, I've said this right from the off. But Ferrari do have a large pool of drivers out there they can pick from. I'm suggesting they should start looking.

Of course the ideal would be for them to have 2 Alonsos. But since human cloning is illegal that can't happen. But Ferrari don't need to replace Massa with someone better than Alonso, they need to replace Massa with someone better than Massa.
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It never changed.

So you don't know who would be better than Massa? so if you don't know then how can you make any judgement on how good he is doing or not?

I never said 2 Alonso's so not sure why you thought I did?

Also your percentage of developing between drivers and engineers? Let's say Alonso tells the team he needs more front end downforce, who develops that? Alonso or the engineers?

Let's also consider, Alonso says he wants a more understeer in the car, Massa says I will do better with a car that tends to oversteer, who is going to get what they want?
 
I know I'm going to regret this, but here goes...

Mr Men said:
It never changed.
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Yes it did

Mr Men said:
so the name of the driver who Ferrari should replace him with is?

And how would this new driver do better than Alonso in feeding info to the engineers?
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Mr Men said:
Name the driver to replace Massa as a better car developer.
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So you don't know who would be better than Massa? so if you don't know then how can you make any judgement on how good he is doing or not?
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Because I can compare him to himself or other around him or just have my own opinion on him.

I never said 2 Alonso's so not sure why you thought I did?
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Huh :confused:?

Also your percentage of developing between drivers and engineers? Let's say Alonso tells the team he needs more front end downforce, who develops that? Alonso or the engineers?
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Ive not idea so I'm not going to speculate. I'm not an engineer, I'm just a fan with (well, trying to have) my own opinions.

Let's also consider, Alonso says he wants a more understeer in the car, Massa says I will do better with a car that tends to oversteer, who is going to get what they want?
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Setting up a car for personal driver preference is much further down the road than the fundamental development of the car to unlock its potential that Ferrari are currently talking about.
 
So you have no idea how much a driver does in developing the car, yet you can tell us Massa is not developing the car enough, gotcha. Good point well made Skeeter.
 
It was you who told us that Massa was not as good at developing the car as Alonso.

So how about you provide some hard figures for your claims, seen as you seem to love those so much?
 
In fact, you know what, don't bother. Your determination to argue with anyone about anything has become very clear on here recently, and I can't be bothered any more.
 
Skeeter said:
It was you who told us that Massa was not as good at developing the car as Alonso.

So how about you provide some hard figures for your claims, seen as you seem to love those so much?
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I am not the one banging a drum about it, you are. Yet you seem to have no idea, but there you go trying to turn it around onto me again....

If you don't think Alonso leads the team then fine, being a car developer means you have the team focused around you and your needs, a Schumacher like figure or Senna like.

Yeah it's not like it takes 2 to tango yeah Skeeter, as usual resort to pointing fingers when you can't back up your comments. You off course never argue a point on this forum, never not at all.
 
englishpremier said:
What makes you think it has anything to do with his injury? An injury that he doesn't even remember. It's just pure speculation.
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Have a look at Massa's results before and after the accident. Before he was regularly getting podiums and race wins. He's not won a single race since the accident, now - okay - Ferrari haven't been as hot 2010 and 2011, but they've still notched up wins and good points. Massa hasn't.

So, yes, it's speculation but dismissing it as "pure" speculation is ignoring the facts. Massa, whether because of the accident or for another reason, hasn't performed since his return in 2010 to the levels he managed beforehand. The natural conclusion is that something about the accident, whether the faintest hint of extra caution or lasting damage from his injuries, has caused that decline.
 
I'm not sure on Massa. Its either the accident or just having a poor car from 09 onwards really? I wonder how much downforce the cars have now compared to 2007/8.
 
Duke said:
I'm not sure on Massa. Its either the accident or just having a poor car from 09 onwards really? I wonder how much downforce the cars have now compared to 2007/8.
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To me it all seemed to start the time when he was told to move over for alonso. Can understand why that would demoralise you. He used to be a pretty decent driver, although one with quite a number of questionable moments.

Edit: you forgot sunama too. I miss acid in these threads though :(
 
Ferrari ditching pull rod suspension shocker?. I said it wouldn't work and no one believed me. With a low nose maybe, but with a high nose there isn't enough angle on that pull rod for it to work properly.
 
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