90% of discussion in this thread is speculation, supposition, theories and opinion. It's what makes it so much fun.
Do you not think that the injury would have some small effect on his confidence?
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Malaysia Grand Prix 2012, Kuala Lumpur - Race 2/20
- Thread starter Duke
- Start date
90% of discussion in this thread is speculation, supposition, theories and opinion. It's what makes it so much fun.
Do you not think that the injury would have some small effect on his confidence?
I don't think so.
The major issue with regards to confidence and the will-to-win is the hammering he is taking right now from Alonso and the Ferrari fans back in Italy. When a human keeps reading reports about him, that he is about to lose his job because he is a bad driver...this is the biggest cause of his confidence being dented.
I can't see how having an accident can cause any problems with confidence. Maybe in the first few races, but after that, the accident is history.
MSc could be a rare breed, but he broke his leg, was out for about half a season, came back and won 5 titles.
Try and find the TV program where Richard Hammond interviews Sterling Moss — they compare notes on life after serious head trauma.
Sterling Moss says that after his accident he couldn't go back to competitive racing because all of the things he used to be able to do instinctively (judging speed, breaking zones, racing line etc.) after the crash he had to think about them.
The split second difference between instinct getting you around a corner and you actually having to think your way around makes a huge difference, especially in F1.
I personally think that's what's happened to Massa and fair play to him for being able to get back into F1 and be fairly competitive. However, I think he's lost something that he had pre-crash which is a shame because he was an excellent driver.
*Senses Mr. Men's shock as Panzer defends Massa.
*Really?
Before Germany, we would routinely see Alonso qualify behind Massa. Then watch Alonso cruise up behind Massa and get stuck behind him.
In Monaco I think Alonso started from the back of the grid and then cruised up behind Massa. And this was at Monaco of all places.
Germany was another instance of Massa being in front of Alonso, then Alonso cruising up behind Massa.
Germany wouldn't effect his confidence, but it would've made clear to Massa that Alonso was now the daddy at Ferrari.
This year, Ferrari have arguably the most difficult car to drive, on the grid and what you are seeing is Alonso showing just what he is able to do. Massa is trying, but the car is horrendously difficult. Hamilton could probably hustle in this year's Ferrari, but even somebody of Button's calibre would struggle (as he requires the car to be well balanced). Do remember that in qualifying, Massa was only 0.3s behind Alonso, which is what you would expect from a No.2 driver, so Massa did an OK job in qualifying.
It's a little unfair that Massa has Alonso as his team-mate. If he had Kimi, he probably wouldn't look so bad, but against Alonso, most drivers (even the good ones), would look ordinary and would therefore come under fire from the Italian media.
I didn't mean he performed well against Alonso, I mean't he performed well for a guy who was nearly killed by a 160mph collision between his head and a lump of metal while driving a racing car.
Alonso was beating him because Alonso is a better driver. The key thing about about Germany was that it firmly sent home the fact that he was not going to be allowed to beat Alonso. A repeat of 2008 just was no longer possible. Since then its just felt like his heart wasn't in it. The guy seems to have no desire to beat Alonso, likely because he knows if he tries, he will be told not to.
Alonso was beating him because Alonso is a better driver. The key thing about about Germany was that it firmly sent home the fact that he was not going to be allowed to beat Alonso. A repeat of 2008 just was no longer possible. Since then its just felt like his heart wasn't in it. The guy seems to have no desire to beat Alonso, likely because he knows if he tries, he will be told not to.
*Senses Mr. Men's shock as Panzer defends Massa.
I think it's very possible the accident has taken something away from Massa, nobody can really say one way or the other but he does not seem the same driver he was up against MS and Kimi.
I know he always says the pressure does not bother him but I think it does, and at times he is over driving the car, trying too hard like he is forcing it and not being natural. I fully believe he will be replaced for next season and he can be happy with his time at Ferrari overall to have 7 years at Maranello says something. On most Ferrari forums they want him out now but we do tend to have a soft spot for him due to the accident
The media is reporting that Massa needs to get his act together.
If Massa can beat Alonso or match him or shadow/follow him, I doubt anybody from Ferrari would tell him to slow down so that Alonso could catch up. Alonso does not need this sort of favour.
In Germany, Alonso was faster. There is no question about that. And Massa was asked to move aside, simply because in 2010, the cars were designed to prevent overtaking (see 2010, last race of the season, for proof). Similarly, in years gone by when TeamMateA is faster than TeamMateB, and TeamMateB is in front, many times, they will swap positions. Why? Because the team instructed that to happen. Both TeamMates understand why this has to happen.
This doesn't mean that TeamMateB should "give up".
I think you are merely coming up with excuses here. The fact is that Massa is not as good as Alonso. The car this year is horrendous and Massa cannot get to grips with it. If the car was more drivable, Massa would probably be right up beside Alonso (albeit, slightly slower in the races).
How am I making stuff up when that is pretty much my exact opinion? Alonso is better, Massa is number 2, and when the car is good Massa is good too.
Thats exactly what I have been saying all along?
My point is that 'number 2' is a very wide field. It ranges from being 0.0001% behind your number 1 and sitting on his gearbox all season creating a nice buffer between your number 1 and the rest of the field, right down to being so slow and useless they may as well not bother running a second car. At the moment Massa is nearer the bottom end of this than the top end, and is apparently not very good at helping to develop an under performing car either.
So given the situation where Alonso wants a rear gunner and Ferrari have an under performing car in need of rapid and coherent development, you have to admit that Massa is not cutting the mustard.
And last year? Alonso won 1 race and what 10 podiums, the car was decent to drive, Massa was still falling behind then, and it's got worse this year so far.
Dunno why Skeeter keeps going on about development, they do that on a Friday and Massa is not far behind Alonso when it comes to practice times because driving steady and consistent is more important when comparing parts, not pushing the car to the limits.
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I think we all agree Massa is underperforming, it is just the reasons why he is that are open to argument?
Great discussion though, beats the usual Lewis vs. Jenson and is Schumi over the hill stuff.
As an aside, has anything come of Vettel's comments on Karth....n or his gestures? I saw mention of a penalty for Karth...n in this thread, but nothing in the media?
Great discussion though, beats the usual Lewis vs. Jenson and is Schumi over the hill stuff.
As an aside, has anything come of Vettel's comments on Karth....n or his gestures? I saw mention of a penalty for Karth...n in this thread, but nothing in the media?
I keep going on about it because the OcUK Ferrari Expert (i.e. you) told me he was poor at developing a car!
If this isn't the case then let me know.
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So it's not really what you think then? He is in his 7th season why now is the development such an issue to you? the car has not been great since 2008.
Development is an issue because the car is a dog and Ferrari themselves have said that they need to work hard to extract the potential from it. Development of the car is Ferrari's key aim.
I know Ferrari have been off form for a few years, but this year is by far the worst.
I know Ferrari have been off form for a few years, but this year is by far the worst.
Alonso said they gained about 3 tenths in Malaysia, his lack of KERS made qualifying look worse, so it seems they are managing to develop the car to me, who do you suggest Ferrari hire for China to develop the car better than Alonso is?
Car is a handful to drive a the moment in slow corners and on light fuel but it's far from a dog, 2009 was worse
Yes they have to work hard to get the car better, and it will be developed for Alonso not Massa. So why are you placing the role of developer on Felipe?Would you put Williams re-found pace as being down to the drivers developing? How much do you think a driver gives in terms of development compared to the engineers?
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I've not placed all all development on Massa.
Development is needed from both Alonso and Massa. I've been under the assumption that Alonso is good already (again, from what you have said).
But if Massa is poor in this area then Ferrari aren't putting their eggs in one basket, they are throwing half their eggs in the bin.
Development is needed from both Alonso and Massa. I've been under the assumption that Alonso is good already (again, from what you have said).
But if Massa is poor in this area then Ferrari aren't putting their eggs in one basket, they are throwing half their eggs in the bin.
I wouldnt be surprised to learn that Massa's reaction times have slowed considerably due to the Brawn spring accident. So instead of doing things naturally / without needing to think he now conciously is required to think about correcting every slide / how to optimally go around x corner etc etc (as described in Moss's interview with Hammond recently) .....in fact I would be surprised if it isnt (a case of this being the case) more than if it was something else
I know their accidents were more dramatic than Massa's , but considering his head injury/ location etc, I dont know why the 3 accidents cant be compared.
After driving for Ferrari for how ever many seasons, I really dont think he needs to worry about his income (even with a large family). he may not be paid the 10's Millions that Alonso gets/ season, but Im sure he and his family are set for life.
No disrespect meant - but if /when he leaves Ferrari, Im not entirely convinced anyone would want him in the currrent pitlane unless he was to bring significant funds (and I m sure from his position that would be hard to stomach). He would be too expensive for the back of the grid teams , and he planly isnt good enough for McLaren/RBR .....unless Ferrari made it some part of their engine deal with Torro Rosso or Sauber.....I just cant see it myself
I know their accidents were more dramatic than Massa's , but considering his head injury/ location etc, I dont know why the 3 accidents cant be compared.
After driving for Ferrari for how ever many seasons, I really dont think he needs to worry about his income (even with a large family). he may not be paid the 10's Millions that Alonso gets/ season, but Im sure he and his family are set for life.
No disrespect meant - but if /when he leaves Ferrari, Im not entirely convinced anyone would want him in the currrent pitlane unless he was to bring significant funds (and I m sure from his position that would be hard to stomach). He would be too expensive for the back of the grid teams , and he planly isnt good enough for McLaren/RBR .....unless Ferrari made it some part of their engine deal with Torro Rosso or Sauber.....I just cant see it myself