Malaysian Grand Prix 2011, Sepang International Circuit - Race 2/19

Just to clarify: Re: Button and tyre conservation.

Can someone give me 3 examples of where Button has nursed his tyres, to a greater degree than all other cars on the track?

2 weeks back Perez did exactly this.
In one of the early races of 2010, an official from Bridgestone stated that Alonso's tyres were in the best shape.

I cannot remember a single occasion where Button took care of his tyres better than any other driver on the track. Not one. Right now, I have no idea where this reputation has come from.

Last year, Button was paired up with Hamilton, who is notoriously aggressive and hard on his tyres. From memory, there was only 1 occasion where Hamilton made an extra stop and that was more down to a screw up by McLaren. I think it was in one of the early races of 2010 and was a completely unnecessary stop.

So, question: give me 3 races where Button was outstanding when it came to tyre conservation.
 
FrankJH said:
(dont think Ferrari had a really bad reliability compared to McLaren)
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Did Ferrari not have terrible engine problems at the start of 2010, to such an extent that most people wrote of Alonso's chances of a title win, on the basis that his engine situation was so bad? This meant that Alonso effectively had to make engines last longer than most and in a race or 2, had to re-use a very old engine.
 
It's about managing your tyres at the right stage, or at least it was last year. He may have been easier on his tyres through different phases of the race but then was equally as hard on them towards the end, hence why at the end of the race it's maybe not that relevant comparing. That's how I see it anyway, but he certainly seems to be able to drive well enough when he claims the tyres have come to him compared to other drivers.
 
Dup said:
It's about managing your tyres at the right stage, ...
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If Button is doing this so well, why is it that Hamilton is constently able to finish ahead of him?

If Button is able to manage his tyres brilliantly, what you will find is one of the 2 things happening:

1. compared to your team-mate, you will stop for tyres fewer times (check Perez in the last race. Also, didnt Alonso stop fewer times than Massa in the last race?)
2. if you stop the same number of times but nurse your tyres better, initially your team-mate will be faster than you, but after a few laps, your tyres which are now in better shape shall allow you to go faster than your team-mate. Over the course of a full race distance, you will be faster than your team-mate, even if your team-mate has the faster (ultimate) lap-time.

Button has not shown his tyre management in the above 2 scenarios, while Perez and Alonso have. In fact, Alonso regularly posts lap times which almost look as if he is driving a different car to his team-mate. This is the sign of a good driver. Hamilton is generally faster than Button over a single lap, as well as a full race distance.

Something is not adding up.

So once again: give me 3 races where Button was outstanding when it came to tyre conservation.

PS. The only area which Button demonstrated superiority to Hamilton (and the rest of the field), is when it rains. The fact that he was leading the WDC after 4 (wet) races last year, is testament to this. Hamilton is fast, but Button is just more intelligent on wet tracks.
 
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sunama said:
Did Ferrari not have terrible engine problems at the start of 2010, to such an extent that most people wrote of Alonso's chances of a title win, on the basis that his engine situation was so bad? This meant that Alonso effectively had to make engines last longer than most and in a race or 2, had to re-use a very old engine.
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but was that Alonso's fault or the engines?

Either way I still dont think over the year Ferrari were drastically worse as was seemingly implied

Re - Button / tyres - whether anyone on here likes it or not, Button seems to have this reputation up and down the pitlane, rightly or wrongly I very much doubt multiple teams and /or commentators would be saying this if it wasnt true (and no one seems to disagree with it more to the point). Also it has to be said that the tyres last year where probably too good for it to really be noticed (apart from possibly the odd race here or there, and depending on the type of circuit it may not suit his style of driving as much so could balance the effect out anyway). Hopefully the new tyres might demonstrate this more - I remember the Bridgestone guy denying this last season but Im sure one of the stations having a side by side comparison (I think this might have been against Barrichello @ Brawn) and JB's were significantly less worn over the same amount of laps.
 
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Duke said:
Any chance of us not going over the same old things again?
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This has never been discussed.
This is why I am asking for an actual example of an occasion where Button demonstrated his ability to look after his tyres better than anybody else...in the same way that Alonso and Perez did.

I refute Button's alleged ability, only because I cannot recall a single occasion where Button's tyre management was shown, beyond doubt, to be superior, in a race.

Obviously, FrankJH has given us one instance (vs Barrichello - a link would be nice). I would like to see an example, in a race, where Button's alleged superior ability in tyre management, was actually demonstrated.

Based on the whole of last season, against Hamilton who is widely regarded as one of the hardest drivers on tyres, Button seemed unable to differentiate his tyre management from Hamilton's. Based on the last 20 races or so, the evidence would suggest that Button is no better than Hamilton at managing his tyres.
 
Button's reputation for being kind on tyres stems from his driving style.

Everyone on the pit lane agrees Button has the smoothest driving style as he uses the least steering angle and makes the least corrections in the corners, it's plain to see from onboard laps. Thus people are deducing that Button should make his tyres last longer. Previous years the tyres haven't needed any looking after, whether Button shows better tyre management than Hamilton this year remains to be seen.
 
Basically for me it comes down to the excuse makers for Button, he's slower but, its because he gets better wear our of his tyres. Big whoop, its a championship, its a race, its not about finishing but about WHERE you finish. Finishing consistantly behind other people but with better tyre wear is NOT in any way better, at all, ever.

Even if it was true, it doesn't matter, as suggested other drivers have done this and done BETTER than other drivers, Button doesn't, any lesser tyre wear is from one simple cause, being a slower driver, nothing more or less. Sure he'll lock up less in corners, because he's never right on the edge, you don't win anything unless you're right on the edge......... unless you happen to be sitting in the best car on the field, completely unmatched.

I love the daft idea he's a great decision maker, most of the time again, he's just reacting to being slow and trying a last resort measure. Perfectly timed pitstop, not normally, normally its being passed so easily and dropping ground theres no reason to be on the same strategy as everyone else as its leaving him in the dust. Having a hail mary work out great, doesn't stop it being a hail mary.

Meh, I really do hate Button, absolutely average driver, absolutely unwilling to risk anything, absolutely boring and absolutely fluked into the right team at the right time and why did he end up in that team, because no one thought they'd be competitive, they couldn't afford a "great" driver, and no great drivers wanted to go there. It almost doesn't matter who was at Brawn that year, the title was going to Brawn, to Rubens, or, almost anyone would have done it. Even the crap drivers would have had so much pace in qualifying, and led from the front, I wouldn't trust Kobyashi to keep the car safe every race starting from the back given a hugely faster car, but leading from the front, I can absolutely see him staying safe and winning the title.
 
sunama said:
This has never been discussed.
This is why I am asking for an actual example of an occasion where Button demonstrated his ability to look after his tyres better than anybody else...in the same way that Alonso and Perez did.

I refute Button's alleged ability, only because I cannot recall a single occasion where Button's tyre management was shown, beyond doubt, to be superior, in a race.

Obviously, FrankJH has given us one instance (vs Barrichello - a link would be nice). I would like to see an example, in a race, where Button's alleged superior ability in tyre management, was actually demonstrated.

Based on the whole of last season, against Hamilton who is widely regarded as one of the hardest drivers on tyres, Button seemed unable to differentiate his tyre management from Hamilton's. Based on the last 20 races or so, the evidence would suggest that Button is no better than Hamilton at managing his tyres.
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So tell us why you dont want to believe the whole pitlane - if there was negative proof about his ability then someone would have said something by now, dont you think?

A few blogs are mentioning Monaco and Spain 2009 where JB's management of his tyres totally blitzed Rubens (with a car that was meant to be notoriously kind to its tyres - hence the numerous heat issues in some races)

Edit - I guess this will also show more when the less prefered tyre option is in use as per Melbourne 2009

Only a text opinion rather than graphical display but this is where I got the info from

http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2009/05/...gifted-button-the-world-drivers-championship/

drunkenmaster said:
snip.
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Do you sprout the same drivel about every sport by any chance? I know you do regarding Arsenal FC
 
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sunama said:
Just to clarify: Re: Button and tyre conservation.

.[/B]
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its BS imo... if anyone is the mastert pof tyre conservation its schumacher :p that man used to stay on slicks in the wet longer than anyone and the same with intermediates when everyone elses were overheating he was using his brain and keeping them going.

probably the first driver to look for patchs of water on a drying circuit.


i dont think it makes a difference these days though a car is either gentle on its tyres or its not
 
Was Button's "smooth" reputation not just something that stuck from years ago?
Everyone needs something to say about a driver, for Button it's that he's got a "smooth driving style".

Doesn't matter if it's the case these days or not, it's just stuck.
 
arknor said:
its BS imo... if anyone is the mastert pof tyre conservation its schumacher :p that man used to stay on slicks in the wet longer than anyone and the same with intermediates when everyone elses were overheating he was using his brain and keeping them going.
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So he should be when he was running one form of illegal electronics or another to help reduce wheel spin. That helps stop the tyres from eating themselves :D
 
dannyjo22 said:
So he should be when he was running one form of illegal electronics or another to help reduce wheel spin. That helps stop the tyres from eating themselves :D
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this has been done to death... it was not traction control it was launch control something renault was very good at once it became legal.
 
In the new Senna movie, much is made of Senna's absolute belief that MSc was running traction control in 1994. Senna seemed to believe that the only reason why the Bennetton was more drivable was because the car was fitted with a form of traction control.

I remember reading an article about the Bennetton having traction control and it was in a hidden/invisible menu. Was this in 1994?
 
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