Indeed. I hear a lot of people saying we should be supporting Assad in Syria, but if you actually look at what he has done/is doing to civilians there then you can only conclude that he is every bit as bad as the Islamic State. The whole region is so messed up and has been for a long time - it's impossible to comprehend growing up in a western civilisation.
Manchester Bombing *** Please remain respectful and refrain from antagonising posts ***
- Thread starter omnomnom
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A lot of the people where I live see Assad as the solution and doesn't think we should be against him and we should be supporting him as he keeps a lid on the extremists. So long as Assad is gassing his own people, at least there are less terrorists to come over here and kill us seems to be the general gist of their thinking.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-40059307
Another 23 Christians slaughtered in Egypt while we're being lectured about Islamophobia.
Another 23 Christians slaughtered in Egypt while we're being lectured about Islamophobia.
One mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter.
Deplorable attitude really.
Soldato
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He is also excusing the murder of 22 people on our interventionist foreign policy & thereby giving justification to the actions of terrorists, which is morally repugnant.
Islam does not make people do bad things.
Our foreign policy does not make people do bad things.
People do bad things because their values and ideals have become twisted from that which is socially & morally acceptable.
It does seem Islamic countries need a extremely firm hand in terms of government and rule for them to be stable especially in the middle east. Is the root cause IRAN and Saudi Arabia ? We deal with one devil yet seemingly assume the other devil is a much worse devil maybe due to its Nuclear ambitions and stance on Israel.
Personally i think a western style democracy and ISLAM does not mix, which is what America wishes to force upon the middle east. Its just finding the best dictator who does not go around electrocuting people as they follow a different path to the rest of the nation. Alas being a dictator does mean you need a good secret police to lop off any opponent who has ideas above his station, in terms of the final say. But you still need a government to collect the bins etc.
(Still Russia is to blame with invading Afghanistan all them years ago)
So 108 pages and still no solution really
Personally i think a western style democracy and ISLAM does not mix, which is what America wishes to force upon the middle east. Its just finding the best dictator who does not go around electrocuting people as they follow a different path to the rest of the nation. Alas being a dictator does mean you need a good secret police to lop off any opponent who has ideas above his station, in terms of the final say. But you still need a government to collect the bins etc.
(Still Russia is to blame with invading Afghanistan all them years ago)
So 108 pages and still no solution really
Soldato
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I'm glad someone had the courage to address the elephant in the room, given the Tories have done everything possible to ignore the issue.
Corbyn as usual spot on with his speech, foreign policy needs to change or we will continue down this path. I'm sure many will have their heads buried in the sand and will put up Hitchens youtube videos as is usual but it's time to accept it. You cannot go around the world murdering the people of other countries, destabilising and conducting regime change for leaders you don't like and then look bemused when people strike back regardless of where they are from. Take this attack and we can clearly see the pain and anger it has caused and the draconian to flat out violent recourse suggestions we have seen in this thread alone yet alone elsewhere. Times that anger and pain a thousand fold and you will start getting close to what many Muslims have felt over the years and you can see where that can lead. It's a problem unfortunately in the west as it seems they value the lives of everybody else as less, deaths are brushed over in the news as if it is nothing. We come up with new terms like combatants to lessen the blow. Look at the population and how ignorant they are (Americans), ive seen many times people asking whats up with North Korea why do they hate us so much? They are shocked to discover the US spent 3 months (or was it weeks) carpet bombing the country intentionally targeting civilians and refugees and wiped out 20% of the North Korean population within a matter of months. No **** they are angry. In the last month the US has killed over 250 civilians in Syria and 100 in a single strike in Iraq last month.
Every action has a reaction and every action has a price. Its seems successive governments are willing to pay that price placing the value of the lives of its citizens below that of flat out illegal wars and regime change.
Every time something like this happens we get the questions why, we say lets ask the Muslim community why this happens. Every time the answer is the same, foreign policy is playing a huge part, heads in sand "but no its clearly because they don't like us eating sausage sandwiches", "no its clearly they don't like our way of life" nothing to do with the fact we have spread pain and misery affecting millions upon millions of people around the world whom are still suffering with the consequences till this very day and for the foreseeable future. The terrorists themselves have told you why they are doing what they are doing but no heads in sand again but Hitchens said there was a attack in 1984 or whatever predating the wars etc Then they will say but ISIS has killed more people than us as if that makes it ok, well in the US they kill each other by factors 100s every year yet their reaction to terrorists attacks are massively disproportional if we go down that line.
Lets look at Libya for example, which the Tories are doing everything possible to ignore, the entire thing was a sham. Flat out it was regime change, nothing to do with the welfare of the Libyan people as the enormous propaganda campaign would have you believe peddled by the Tories at the time and media.
http://www.belfercenter.org/publication/lessons-libya-how-not-intervene
They said Qaddafi was about to butcher indiscriminately civilians and we have to do something for the people of Libya
Now can anyone keep a straight face and tell me we are safer in the UK or in Europe after forcing regime change in Libya? We have floods of immigrants poring over into mainland Europe we provided a safe haven to terrorists groups in Libya with all the arms and training they could dream of provided by yours truly the UK/France/US and are a boat ride away from mainland Europe. This latest terrorist incident looks like it was planned and executed from Libya with travel back and forth.
How is any of this keeping us safe, our number one priority should be the citizens of the UK. We are in more danger now than we were 15 years ago, ISIS was born out of the torture camps in Iraq whilst under occupation which has then led to the issues in Syria where again we are training and providing arms to what amounts to terrorists which can only end devastatingly.
For keeping the UK safe seems Corbyn has the right ideas, curbing foreign policy so its less bloody and tackling some of the issues at home. Hes gone on record to state he will as prime minister apologise for the Iraq war which i can tell you myself will help heal a lot of old wounds inflicted by the last labour leader all of which will take power away from extremists and extremist recruiters.
Just my two cents.
Corbyn as usual spot on with his speech, foreign policy needs to change or we will continue down this path. I'm sure many will have their heads buried in the sand and will put up Hitchens youtube videos as is usual but it's time to accept it. You cannot go around the world murdering the people of other countries, destabilising and conducting regime change for leaders you don't like and then look bemused when people strike back regardless of where they are from. Take this attack and we can clearly see the pain and anger it has caused and the draconian to flat out violent recourse suggestions we have seen in this thread alone yet alone elsewhere. Times that anger and pain a thousand fold and you will start getting close to what many Muslims have felt over the years and you can see where that can lead. It's a problem unfortunately in the west as it seems they value the lives of everybody else as less, deaths are brushed over in the news as if it is nothing. We come up with new terms like combatants to lessen the blow. Look at the population and how ignorant they are (Americans), ive seen many times people asking whats up with North Korea why do they hate us so much? They are shocked to discover the US spent 3 months (or was it weeks) carpet bombing the country intentionally targeting civilians and refugees and wiped out 20% of the North Korean population within a matter of months. No **** they are angry. In the last month the US has killed over 250 civilians in Syria and 100 in a single strike in Iraq last month.
Every action has a reaction and every action has a price. Its seems successive governments are willing to pay that price placing the value of the lives of its citizens below that of flat out illegal wars and regime change.
Every time something like this happens we get the questions why, we say lets ask the Muslim community why this happens. Every time the answer is the same, foreign policy is playing a huge part, heads in sand "but no its clearly because they don't like us eating sausage sandwiches", "no its clearly they don't like our way of life" nothing to do with the fact we have spread pain and misery affecting millions upon millions of people around the world whom are still suffering with the consequences till this very day and for the foreseeable future. The terrorists themselves have told you why they are doing what they are doing but no heads in sand again but Hitchens said there was a attack in 1984 or whatever predating the wars etc Then they will say but ISIS has killed more people than us as if that makes it ok, well in the US they kill each other by factors 100s every year yet their reaction to terrorists attacks are massively disproportional if we go down that line.
Lets look at Libya for example, which the Tories are doing everything possible to ignore, the entire thing was a sham. Flat out it was regime change, nothing to do with the welfare of the Libyan people as the enormous propaganda campaign would have you believe peddled by the Tories at the time and media.
http://www.belfercenter.org/publication/lessons-libya-how-not-intervene
They said Qaddafi was about to butcher indiscriminately civilians and we have to do something for the people of Libya
Now can anyone keep a straight face and tell me we are safer in the UK or in Europe after forcing regime change in Libya? We have floods of immigrants poring over into mainland Europe we provided a safe haven to terrorists groups in Libya with all the arms and training they could dream of provided by yours truly the UK/France/US and are a boat ride away from mainland Europe. This latest terrorist incident looks like it was planned and executed from Libya with travel back and forth.
How is any of this keeping us safe, our number one priority should be the citizens of the UK. We are in more danger now than we were 15 years ago, ISIS was born out of the torture camps in Iraq whilst under occupation which has then led to the issues in Syria where again we are training and providing arms to what amounts to terrorists which can only end devastatingly.
For keeping the UK safe seems Corbyn has the right ideas, curbing foreign policy so its less bloody and tackling some of the issues at home. Hes gone on record to state he will as prime minister apologise for the Iraq war which i can tell you myself will help heal a lot of old wounds inflicted by the last labour leader all of which will take power away from extremists and extremist recruiters.
Just my two cents.
It matters a lot - the US weren't specifically targeting civilians, they were used as a human shield by ISIS. Tragic, yes, but the blame lies solely with ISIS.
I dunno the exact setup with Coptic Christians in Egypt but interestingly under Islam Christians while living within certain rules within Muslim cultures, more so if they are paying or covered by the agreement of jizyah actually are supposed to be afforded a level of protection from oppression or killing of them and to do so is actually one of the worst things a Muslim can do - I can't remember the exact wording but it is something along the lines that The Prophet would directly testify against that Muslim on the day of resurrection. For some reason it is often glossed over or not taught at all. Not that IS cares about that but still its funny that under fundamental Islam whoever carried it out ostensibly in the name of Islam under Islam likely actually damned themselves.
Yes ultimately it does but we all know every legit target is probably going to have lots of innocent civilians there as well and we, or rather the US, are quite happy to continue anyway and just blame ISIS for having human shields.
That killing of innocent people probably then angers another 20 people to becoming terrorists and on and on it goes.
If we want to keep doing this policy of killing them in foreign countries then we need to be man enough to tackle the consequences and perhaps we should evict or intern every muslim here.
Corbyn is a classic case of a broken watch being right twice a day. When it comes to things like foreign intervention you have to do the best you can with the information you have at the time (and to finish the quote "and hope there is a forgiving god") - people like Corbyn who forever advocate doing nothing/appeasement/the cowards path will always be right every now and again but that doesn't make them always right.
Is that ok in the 21st century? To be ruled by an iron fist?
The west didn't really do much in Libya, we took out Ghaddafi and gave a platform for transition. Don't think you'll find many people from Libya that disagreed with the Nato led intervention.
All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. Edmund Burke.
Great quote, quite appropriate.
And part of the ongoing problem is the usual US arrogance of flexing its military muscles where a more tactful response is needed.
This isn't really true though. Many, if not most of the ME countries have embraced Western culture and Western ways. You just have to visit the place to see McDonald's, KFC, coke, western industry and tech. It's not really a them and us scenario. A few of the ME states do have internal issues with extremism and civil revolt (obviously Iraq, Syria) but to tarnish the whole huge region the same isn't just.It does seem Islamic countries need a extremely firm hand in terms of government and rule for them to be stable especially in the middle east. Is the root cause IRAN and Saudi Arabia ? We deal with one devil yet seemingly assume the other devil is a much worse devil maybe due to its Nuclear ambitions and stance on Israel.
Personally i think a western style democracy and ISLAM does not mix, which is what America wishes to force upon the middle east. Its just finding the best dictator who does not go around electrocuting people as they follow a different path to the rest of the nation. Alas being a dictator does mean you need a good secret police to lop off any opponent who has ideas above his station, in terms of the final say. But you still need a government to collect the bins etc.
(Still Russia is to blame with invading Afghanistan all them years ago)
So 108 pages and still no solution really
I don't think Corbyn is quite that level of wilfully doing nothing (though the net effect might be similar) - more that he can't distinguish between when the soft path is a viable option and when it absolutely isn't going to produce the desired end result.
I think some posters in this thread would be in for a bit of a shock if they actually spent some time in say Iran heh.
Is sad that so many see not bombing another country, killing innocents and combatants alike, as ¨the cowards path". Violent intervention should always be a very last resort.