Manchester Bombing *** Please remain respectful and refrain from antagonising posts ***

magick said:
It worked in iraq and a similar but more toned policy worked in libya and syria under gadaffi amd assad. It wasnt until we destabalised these nations that they went down the pan.
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Syria was likely going down the pan anyhow - strained relations with Saudi Arabia, a melting pot of refugees from different conflicting aspects of Islam and other religions never mind the external meddling which as much involves Russia and other actors (there are many with a stake in causing chaos in Syria) as it does the West.

mid_gen said:
What can we do to stop it? I put forward the suggestion that we stop meddling in Muslim countries and turning them into war zones.

Western sentiments have definitely turned against this sort of meddling....but sadly you can't undo the last two decades overnight. We'll be paying the price of our failed foreign policy in blood for years to come.
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Western meddling is only one factor in a very complex situation - even if somehow the West pulled out entirely and somehow undid everything that has happened historically it wouldn't solve much out there or stop it from being pulled back into the fallout of events.
 
mid_gen said:
What can we do to stop it? I put forward the suggestion that we stop meddling in Muslim countries and turning them into war zones.

Western sentiments have definitely turned against this sort of meddling....but sadly you can't undo the last two decades overnight. We'll be paying the price of our failed foreign policy in blood for years to come.
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The west learnt nothing from the soviet union afghanistan war.....
 
Rroff said:
Syria was likely going down the pan anyhow - strained relations with Saudi Arabia, a melting pot of refugees from different conflicting aspects of Islam and other religions never mind the external meddling which as much involves Russia and other actors (there are many with a stake in causing chaos in Syria) as it does the West.
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Lets hope the west dont make the same mistakes with IRAN...
 
There's nothing physical you can do to prevent attacks like this happening, anyone can make explosives and a bomb at home.

All you can do is attempt to stamp out religion, the brainwashing of people must stop in the 21st century, mankind must surpass it and overcome it.
 
I've always said evolution and astronomy education from young. Pollute the airwaves with it.

Education is the cure. Sorry bud but yours and all religions are fake.

Mass mailouts of leaflets !!
 
Energize said:
There's nothing physical you can do to prevent attacks like this happening, anyone can make explosives and a bomb at home.

All you can do is attempt to stamp out religion, the brainwashing of people must stop in the 21st century, mankind must surpass it and overcome it.
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Another group will always take their place which is a proven fact from the lessons of history.
 
Energize said:
There's nothing physical you can do to prevent attacks like this happening, anyone can make explosives and a bomb at home.

All you can do is attempt to stamp out religion, the brainwashing of people must stop in the 21st century, mankind must surpass it and overcome it.
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Mankind will find their gods however much you try to stamp out religion. What is needed is a fundamental shift in human nature and a global awareness of the human race as an organism.

sityeuropa said:
I've always said evolution and astronomy education from young. Pollute the airwaves with it.

Education is the cure. Sorry bud but yours and all religions are fake.

Mass mailouts of leaflets !!
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And you will achieve very little - some of the most educated people you will ever meet are also some of the most devoutly religious.
 
mid_gen said:
What can we do to stop it? I put forward the suggestion that we stop meddling in Muslim countries and turning them into war zones.

Western sentiments have definitely turned against this sort of meddling....but sadly you can't undo the last two decades overnight. We'll be paying the price of our failed foreign policy in blood for years to come.
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despite what you believe most of the violence in the middle east in the past 50 years is down to two things...

1) the internal civil war in Islam between the shia and the sunni

2) repressive dictators either suppressing their populace or openly fighting (parts) of them (ie Syria)

we let the genie out of the lamp a bit by toppling the bathist Saddam Hussein regime in Iraq but the tensions were already there. Saddam just (brutally) kept a lid on them whilst periodically engaging in genocide within his borders (Kurds) or aggressive invasions or neighboring countries (Iran and Kuwait)

it's a complete fallacy that we would be left alone and all would be ok if we left the middle east to itself
 
Caracus2k said:
despite what you believe most of the violence in the middle east in the past 50 years is down to two things...

1) the internal civil war in Islam between the shia and the sunni

2) repressive dictators either suppressing their populace or openly fighting (parts) of them (ie Syria)

we let the genie out of the lamp a bit by toppling the bathist Saddam Hussein regume in Iraq but the tensions were already there. Saddam just (brutally) kept a lid on them whilst periodically engaging in genocide within his borders (Kurds) or aggressive invasions or neighboring countries (Iran and Kuwait)

it's a complete fallacy that we would be left alone and all would be ok if we left the middle east to itself
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But the west has become a defacto common enemy...
 
Caracus2k said:
it's a complete fallacy that we would be left alone and all would be ok if we left the middle east to itself
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It is an interesting one - at times large parts of the ME have been held in relative peace by aid of some significant atrocities - where do you draw the line on turning a blind eye for the greater "good" or the resulting fallout from doing something about that :| personally I don't think it is ever acceptable - one of the problems as well seems that there has never been a proper plan for what to do afterwards.
 
Rroff said:
It is an interesting one - at times large parts of the ME have been held in relative peace by aid of some significant atrocities - where do you draw the line on turning a blind eye for the greater "good" or the resulting fallout from doing something about that :| personally I don't think it is ever acceptable - one of the problems as well seems that there has never been a proper plan for what to do afterwards.
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Oil and money gets in the way......
 
h4rm0ny said:
Granted, but that is one province in Indonesia where they have Sharia law. In the rest of the country homosexuality is legal. I'll remind you that even in the UK it wasn't until 1958 that serious public campaigning for same-sex relationships to be legalised began. And it wasn't until 1961 that gay sex was actually legaised and then only if you were over 21 and it was in private and if you weren't in the Navy or armed forces. My point is that Islam cannot be treated as some indivisible cultural monolith. Compare Indonesia with Saudi Arabia and it will seem as progressive as you like. And as mentioned - the Kurds are very progressive in many ways. Check out the Kurdish YPJ.

None of it is perfect, but there's plenty that shows Islam can and does change.



Oh, I don't pretend there aren't serious problems. I think many muslims know it too. My point is that increasing the division does more harm than good. The path forward is for Islam to become more moderate of muslim's own choice. Not to be defeated in a battle of arms between the West and all two billion muslims! And I believe that can happen because ultimately, most people of any group just want to live their lives and be safe. War is a terrible way to achieve either of those which most muslims (other than from Saudi Arabia) seem to know.

Similarly with the Kurdish YPJ, recall how one of the great shifts in sexual equality in Britain was WWII where British women had to leave the home and work hard in factories because Britain was fighting a desperate war. Effort and heroism was called for by all, not just men. The Kurds have been fighting for survival for a while now - just the same, gender roles have become less defined with women soldiers and more. History and our environment shape our cultures more, I believe, than belief in this god or that. Evolution - even the cultural kind - isn't open to negotiation.
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There was an interesting article in a paper today pointing out that the 60s was only the start of making homosexuality legal in the UK, and homosexuality was still challenged rightnup until recently under other laws.

https://www.theguardian.com/comment...k-barely-four-1967-act?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

And I agree, Islam is changing, but much like all other religions it's not some monolith that can just change the views of everyone that follows it at the same time. Even then much of the issue with Islamic countries is not the religion itself but the cultures surrounding them. Culture is borne partly of religion, but religious interpretations is heavily borne of culture. Change the culture and you change the religion.

Much like the UK and Europe the young are in general much more liberal than the older generation, who err more towards the conservative traditional ways of the past. Some of those that idealize the past have decided that violence is their solution to holding on to it.

I hope this wave of terrorism and fighting is a last harrah of a certain generation trying to stop the movement to a more liberal, modern culture that is increasingly common (at least in my personal experience) amongst the younger generation. As you say most people just want to life in a safe environment and are generally good people.

What we in the west certainly shouldn't be doing is resorting to segregation and indiscriminate violence to "solve" this issue. Persecuting both those that perpetuate the actual acts of violence and also those that just happen to follow the same religion. All that does is bring us down to the level of those we are fighting against.
 
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