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Mantle Feedback/Bugs

The problem with the way the info is being presented is that it doesnt tell the whole story, the Swarm demo has very clearly been put together in a way that hasnt been properly optimised on DX, no command lists, unneccessary addition of light sources for very little visual improvement etc

For a setup most similar to mine the bf4 results are not miles off (e.g. Nowhere near 50%) that I get on DX where im able to replicate them

There is more to the story than just OMGZ MANTELZ R T'BEST which is the way it is being represented

I'll be quite happy if/when mantle has an impact on my Amd rig, at the same time I see nothing to really warrant switching my Nvidia rig to Amd now or even in the next year or two, I have an open mind as to what could happen, not a blinkered one that assumes the future based on a tiny snippet of info I wish to be true

There it is, a good result so it must be gimped to favor AMD/Mantle. :rolleyes:

This is exactly what i'm talking about.

So Mr Expert, explain how you came to this conclution "the Swarm demo has very clearly been put together in a way that hasnt been properly optimised on DX"

I would really like to read from your expertise. see if you actually know what your talking about, i don't think you do. explain to me what is going on. how it works and why its gimped.

looking forward to reading what you have to say when i get back.
 
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Don't think it takes a genius to work out SS is gimped in DX11, it barely flipping works, from the comments in the thread it's far from the pinnacle of stability. The first proper DX11 benchmark didn't display any problems that SS seems to display (Heaven 1.0)

Plus, many people seem to completely ignore where AMD has flat out lied in the past about things (The i7 980x Cinebench result which turned out to be a stock 2500K......), so I wouldn't put it past them to put pressure with this SS and a broken DirectX variant (Likewise with Nvidia tbh, an example would be one of the PhysX benchmarks that would gimp itself halfway through for the Hybrid PhysX users)
 
There it is, a good result so it must be gimped to favor AMD/Mantle. :rolleyes:

This is exactly what i'm talking about.

So Mr Expert, explain how you came to this conclution "the Swarm demo has very clearly been put together in a way that hasnt been properly optimised on DX"

I would really like to read from your expertise. see if you actually know what your talking about, i don't think you do. explain to me what is going on. how it works and why its gimped.

I asked him for proof of this but he never provided it. This is only used to discredit Star Swarm mantle results. Anyone who believes Oxide would deliberately gimp their own graphics engine is an idiot.

DX is by far the most popular and far more lucrative market for Star Swarm. So the developers decided to screw them over. :rolleyes:

Oxide have already made it clear that Star Swarm got far more optimisations in DX than Mantle. It's much easier to claim they are liars, especially if it means you have to accept team green are not the ROXORS.
 
Don't think it takes a genius to work out SS is gimped in DX11, it barely flipping works, from the comments in the thread it's far from the pinnacle of stability. The first proper DX11 benchmark didn't display any problems that SS seems to display (Heaven 1.0)

Plus, many people seem to completely ignore where AMD has flat out lied in the past about things (The i7 980x Cinebench result which turned out to be a stock 2500K......), so I wouldn't put it past them to put pressure with this SS and a broken DirectX variant (Likewise with Nvidia tbh)

Then he should have no problems giving me a coherent answer.

and It wasn't AMD who said Star Swarm was actually very well optimized for DX. it was its creator, is he a lair to?

Got to go out. back later...
 
There it is, a good result so it must be gimped to favor AMD/Mantle. :rolleyes:

This is exactly what i'm talking about.

So Mr Expert, explain how you came to this conclution "the Swarm demo has very clearly been put together in a way that hasnt been properly optimised on DX"

I would really like to read from your expertise. see if you actually know what your talking about, i don't think you do. explain to me what is going on. how it works and why its gimped.

looking forward to reading what you have to say when i get back.

Straw man argument, that isn't what I said, but I've already given you two things I would like answers on, how many more do you want?

it would be good if the SS demo gave settings that could be tweaked to see how much certain aspects of the pro-mantle implementation affect performance (much as you can do in say gameworks titles by turning off each of them one by one)

they've chosen not to batch things in DX in the best way they could, and in mantle they don't need to batch at all, that is great for developers and great for mantle, however it sucks for DX users (and not just nvidia users, but anyone running a non mantle AMD card)... as a tech demo for fellow developers and for other API developers who need a kick in the pants maybe, but for gamers as a whole it is just like all the other tech demos like Samaritan, that then take years to have any real impact on the games we can actually play in the real world

I also don't find it particularly compelling when DX average 11fps and mantle then averages 30fps, as this isn't playable either
 
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Don't think it takes a genius to work out SS is gimped in DX11, it barely flipping works, from the comments in the thread it's far from the pinnacle of stability. The first proper DX11 benchmark didn't display any problems that SS seems to display (Heaven 1.0)

Plus, many people seem to completely ignore where AMD has flat out lied in the past about things (The i7 980x Cinebench result which turned out to be a stock 2500K......), so I wouldn't put it past them to put pressure with this SS and a broken DirectX variant (Likewise with Nvidia tbh, an example would be one of the PhysX benchmarks that would gimp itself halfway through for the Hybrid PhysX users)

It is gimped, I posted this in the Star Swarm thread. They have their motion blur on both versions. This however is only intended for Mantle, but I believe they have it in to show how Mantle can perform beyond limitations of DX.

If you had seen any of Oxide's interviews before they released it, you will have heard about how they intend to use extra features such as their multi render motion blur as an addition to Mantle. They brought out a video showing how DX get's completely crippled by this motion blur.

Is it wrong that they put the motion blur on the DirectX version? No not really, seeing as this was released as a tech demo, more than a benchmark tool. It is specifically highlighting a DX weak area and showing how Mantle can power through it. It's not a bad thing, the only bad thing is people see it as a benchmark tool, when it's absolutely not. This is an engine they intend to ship out to other developers and to develop games of their own. They had spent more time optimising in DX than they did in Mantle, they made a point how it took 1 guy, 1 month to incorporate Mantle into the engine.

Them showing these issues where Mantle storms ahead of directx can only be of benefit to everyone, the more aware people become of certain limitations in directx, the more Microsoft will be pressured into creating a more efficient package for all of us to enjoy.

It's blatantly obvious in the cases where Mantle works (which admittedly is practically never for me) that it's more efficient than Directx. Even in it's infancy.

Is it a game changer? What's a game changer in today's market? In a market where parts are being released with negligible improvements on their predecessors. While it's still not amazing and still incredibly limited in scope, it's still a potential game changer. It's giving quite a lot of hardware more significant boosts than some physical hardware upgrades provide, in today's market. So it's hard to deny it's great, even if in my case I get a loss of performance over any gains. It would be incredibly selfish of me to lambast an early Mantle version, based solely because some people have gains and I don't have any.

As for the whole benchmark arguments, until someone comes out with a proper, reliable and consistent benchmark, people will try and compare the two renders in any way they can. Matt has tried to come up with as close to a reliable benchmark scene as possible, which is still not going to cut it for the long run. Until there is software available to get a reliable and consistent result, people will try every part of every map of every game mode of Battlefield 4, to find the strengths and weaknesses of both renders.

I know people are very opinionated, but can we try to not fill the thread with arguments. Nothing wrong with discussing your opinions, but when a discussion goes on for pages and the same things are being said with every post, you know it's dragged on too long and maybe time to back away from the discussion. Nothing is gained by anyone when that happens.

Sorry for the long post, I try my best not to ramble, but more often than not, I fail miserably.
 
Straw man argument, that isn't what I said, but I've already given you two things I would like answers on, how many more do you want?

I just looked for that, you haven't asked me anything, literally haven't, what are you talking about, where?

it would be good if the SS demo gave settings that could be tweaked to see how much certain aspects of the pro-mantle implementation affect performance

You suggesting that tells me you do not know what your talking about, as it stands it measures API paralleled physics calculation handles through put, you don't know what that means, if you did you would see how idiotic that suggestion is.

they've chosen not to batch things in DX in the best way they could.

Really? elaborate on that.

and in mantle they don't need to batch at all

lol, as above.

but for gamers as a whole it is just like all the other tech demos like Samaritan, that then take years to have any real impact on the games we can actually play in the real world

SS has been in development for a couple of years at least, it is developed and optimized for DX, and now littrally ported to Mantle in a few months.

I also don't find it particularly compelling when DX average 11fps and mantle then averages 30fps, as this isn't playable either

This again shows your lack of understanding.

It is designed to ratchet up the calculation handles to the point where the DX API cannot cope to show you where the limits are and what happens.

It is designed to do the same thing with Mantle. it will also push the Mantle API to it limits which (just as in DX) results in low FPS.

If you create a game you program that game with Parallel handle limits, if the API cannot process more than x number of handles the game will never ask for more than that number, they do this to avoid massive slowdowns.

The Star Swarm app is designed to push beyond the limits, it wants to show you those massive slowdowns.
 
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First loads of results
BF4 Multiplayer
Full 64player servers used
Full Ultra settings-4x Msaa-90FOV-1080P


System used
I7 4770K @4.6
Asus Reference 290X @1150/1400


Paracel Storm
Direct X
Frames:- Avg: 93.791 - Min: 63 - Max: 192

Mantle API
Frames:- Avg: 108.924 - Min: 74 - Max: 228 (16% Faster)

Dawnbreaker
Direct X
Frames:- Avg: 92.786 - Min: 81 - Max: 102

Mantle API
Frames:- Avg: 119.644 - Min: 8 - Max: 228 (29% Faster)

Golmud Railway
Direct X
Frames:- Avg: 112.552 - Min: 50 - Max: 154

Mantle API
Frames:- Avg: 122.262 - Min: 12 - Max: 228 (9% Faster)

Locker room
Direct X
Frames:- Avg: 116.688 - Min: 82 - Max: 161

Mantle API
Frames:- Avg: 107.833 - Min: 79 - Max: 185 (-7% Slower)

As you can see Mantle for the most part is working brilliantly in my system, but it's not without it's problems.

:Cpu spikes/stutter in most maps resulting in very low minimum framerates.

:Random crashes when joining or leaving a game (Battlefield stopped responding)

:Known fog/colour loss bug

Even with the issues though i think mantle is off to a great start, the performance increases are there for those with the currently supported hardware.

The issues i'm sure will be fixed soon enough and Support and optimizations for all GCN added asap.

Things are looking good some far though and i'm eager to see what AMD can do with Mantle.
 
First loads of results
BF4 Multiplayer
Full 64player servers used
Full Ultra settings-4x Msaa-90FOV-1080P


System used
I7 4770K @4.6
Asus Reference 290X @1150/1400


Paracel Storm
Direct X
Frames:- Avg: 93.791 - Min: 63 - Max: 192

Mantle API
Frames:- Avg: 108.924 - Min: 74 - Max: 228 (16% Faster)

Dawnbreaker
Direct X
Frames:- Avg: 92.786 - Min: 81 - Max: 102

Mantle API
Frames:- Avg: 119.644 - Min: 8 - Max: 228 (29% Faster)

Golmud Railway
Direct X
Frames:- Avg: 112.552 - Min: 50 - Max: 154

Mantle API
Frames:- Avg: 122.262 - Min: 12 - Max: 228 (9% Faster)

Locker room
Direct X
Frames:- Avg: 116.688 - Min: 82 - Max: 161

Mantle API
Frames:- Avg: 107.833 - Min: 79 - Max: 185 (-7% Slower)

As you can see Mantle for the most part is working brilliantly in my system, but it's not without it's problems.

:Cpu spikes/stutter in most maps resulting in very low minimum framerates.

:Random crashes when joining or leaving a game (Battlefield stopped responding)

:Known fog/colour loss bug

Even with the issues though i think mantle is off to a great start, the performance increases are there for those with the currently supported hardware.

The issues i'm sure will be fixed soon enough and Support and optimizations for all GCN added asap.

Things are looking good some far though and i'm eager to see what AMD can do with Mantle.

Nicely done :D the CPU spike's are a real pain, I have no idea if this is Game or Driver. But what I do know is I cant wait for 14.2 or next Patch.

Until the stutter and crashing is sorted I dont think we can give a true test on Performance. For example the CPU spikes make the frame rate drop thus giving false reading.
 
Nicely done :D the CPU spike's are a real pain, I have no idea if this is Game or Driver. But what I do know is I cant wait for 14.2 or next Patch.

Until the stutter and crashing is sorted I dont think we can give a true test on Performance. For example the CPU spikes make the frame rate drop thus giving false reading.

+1.

It gave us a nice taster, but we want moar. Need to get crossfire working properly as well.
 
Nicely done :D the CPU spike's are a real pain, I have no idea if this is Game or Driver. But what I do know is I cant wait for 14.2 or next Patch.

Until the stutter and crashing is sorted I dont think we can give a true test on Performance. For example the CPU spikes make the frame rate drop thus giving false reading.

Cheers shankly and i 100% agree pal, will be a far better test when some of the issues hav been sorted.

+1.

It gave us a nice taster, but we want moar. Need to get crossfire working properly as well.

+1, looking forward to seeing thief now too, that new trailer looks awesome!
 
A bit more explaining on why this matters :)

A live multiplayer game has height width and depth, it is a 3D environment.

Whats more, every-other player that you see is live, there for where he is and what he is doing has to be calculated in relation to you, especially if he is interacting with you, shooting at you, for example.

Now, there may be 100's of different simultaneous calculations going on with that player alone, all of which is done on the CPU.
If your GPU is rendering that image at 60 FPS then those calculations need to be refreshed and recalculated 60 times in one second. this is where latency comes in, if you have 60 positioning calculations in one second then you have better accuracy and stand a better chance of hitting your target than if you only had 30 positioning calculations in that same second. (30 FPS)

This performance depends on two things, the ability of your CPU to run those calculation fast, and the API (D3D / Mantle) ability to process what the CPU has calculated, IE tell the GPU where everything is in the image its just about to render.

If the GPU does not get those calculations at the time it expects then it will wait for them, the result of that is the GPU will not render the image in the allotted time and your FPS will drop.
So, if D3D can process 4.000 calculations in the time it takes the GPU to render 60 such frame in one second, and the GPU is asking for 3.990 calculations then D3D will hand the calculations over at 60 per second intervals.
If the GPU is asking for 8.000 calculations then D3D being limited to 4.000 will hand over 8.000 but take twice as long in doing it, the result is the GPU will only render 30 images in that one second allotted time, (30 FPS)
Higher latency, less accurate positioning, your at a disadvantage.

If Mantle can process 10.000 then it has no problem handing over 8.000, thus the FPS remain steady and high, you have the advantage.
 
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First loads of results
BF4 Multiplayer
Full 64player servers used
Full Ultra settings-4x Msaa-90FOV-1080P


System used
I7 4770K @4.6
Asus Reference 290X @1150/1400


Paracel Storm
Direct X
Frames:- Avg: 93.791 - Min: 63 - Max: 192

Mantle API
Frames:- Avg: 108.924 - Min: 74 - Max: 228 (16% Faster)

Dawnbreaker
Direct X
Frames:- Avg: 92.786 - Min: 81 - Max: 102

Mantle API
Frames:- Avg: 119.644 - Min: 8 - Max: 228 (29% Faster)

Golmud Railway
Direct X
Frames:- Avg: 112.552 - Min: 50 - Max: 154

Mantle API
Frames:- Avg: 122.262 - Min: 12 - Max: 228 (9% Faster)

Locker room
Direct X
Frames:- Avg: 116.688 - Min: 82 - Max: 161

Mantle API
Frames:- Avg: 107.833 - Min: 79 - Max: 185 (-7% Slower)

As you can see Mantle for the most part is working brilliantly in my system, but it's not without it's problems.

:Cpu spikes/stutter in most maps resulting in very low minimum framerates.

:Random crashes when joining or leaving a game (Battlefield stopped responding)

:Known fog/colour loss bug

Even with the issues though i think mantle is off to a great start, the performance increases are there for those with the currently supported hardware.

The issues i'm sure will be fixed soon enough and Support and optimizations for all GCN added asap.

Things are looking good some far though and i'm eager to see what AMD can do with Mantle.

Interesting figures for Locker, my 4770k @ stock with my 290P set to 1050/1250 i get an average 74fps or so on Locker, so not far off your results really for clock speeds etc. I think that map among most with the amount of fog and particle effects is particulary hard on the gpu. I only really play that map too, will definitely try some others out to see what FPS im getting elsewhere.
 
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