Mantle Feedback/Bugs

[andybird123]

I just looked for that, you haven't asked me anything, literally haven't, what are you talking about, where?

You suggesting that tells me you do not know what your talking about, as it stands it measures API paralleled physics calculation handles through put, you don't know what that means, if you did you would see how idiotic that suggestion is.

In the very post of mine that you quoted, that you don't understand that clearly shows to me that you don't know what you are talking about

that is also an incredibly poorly forumlated sentence, the only reason I don't know what you mean is because it is barely english - the words are english however they are arranged in such a way that the resulting sentence does not actually have any meaning

directx command lists... they haven't implemented them
each "bolt" being its own light source - can we turn that off

to name just two

in their presentation they talk about 10,000 units and 50,000 batch calls
a properly optimised DX path would be the other way round, more units than batch calls, you could lose individual unit damage states (assuming the demo has them) and the end result would be much much better performance on DX

when you are looking at a battle with thousands of ships, would you really be zooming in to look at every single individual fighter to see if one had a damaged wing or something, probably not, by linking damage states to squadrons instead of individual units you could take say a sqd of 10 ships and batch them together with just position, orientation etc. as specific to each unit

as it stands, the SS demo is a tech demo for mantle, that is great, however it is this way in an effort to overexaggerate the usefulness of mantle, as far as actual playable gaming goes, you could lose a lot of what they've added because of mantle and the final image quality and resulting gameplay would be more akin to the benefits we see in BF4 instead of 2-3 times performance bonus marketing figures we are getting given

I'm not sure why you are talking about physics in relation to drawcalls as the two are not linked directly and I don't see any major talk of improved physics in the oxide presentation, they are just talking about being able to make a lot more drawcalls

in the presentation, they specifically say that they HAVE NOT BATCHED drawcalls in the mantle version because they didn't need to, really if you need me to spoon feed you this there is no helping you

as you mention, it is an extreme case and it isn't one that has any real bearing on me as a gamer

if you want to see an example of the benefits of command lists, look at these results, Civ5 does use command lists, and is an RTS type game like SS;
http://www.anandtech.com/show/7189/choosing-a-gaming-cpu-september-2013/8

a pair of GTX580's beating a pair of 7970's (from October 2013 so shouldn't be down to drivers)

 

[humbug]

In the very post of mine that you quoted, that you don't understand that clearly shows to me that you don't know what you are talking about

that is also an incredibly poorly forumlated sentence, the only reason I don't know what you mean is because it is barely english - the words are english however they are arranged in such a way that the resulting sentence does not actually have any meaning

directx command lists... they haven't implemented them
each "bolt" being its own light source - can we turn that off

to name just two

in their presentation they talk about 10,000 units and 50,000 batch calls
a properly optimised DX path would be the other way round, more units than batch calls, you could lose individual unit damage states (assuming the demo has them) and the end result would be much much better performance on DX

when you are looking at a battle with thousands of ships, would you really be zooming in to look at every single individual fighter to see if one had a damaged wing or something, probably not, by linking damage states to squadrons instead of individual units you could take say a sqd of 10 ships and batch them together with just position, orientation etc. as specific to each unit

as it stands, the SS demo is a tech demo for mantle, that is great, however it is this way in an effort to overexaggerate the usefulness of mantle, as far as actual playable gaming goes, you could lose a lot of what they've added because of mantle and the final image quality and resulting gameplay would be more akin to the benefits we see in BF4 instead of 2-3 times performance bonus marketing figures we are getting given

I'm not sure why you are talking about physics in relation to drawcalls as the two are not linked directly and I don't see any major talk of improved physics in the oxide presentation, they are just talking about being able to make a lot more drawcalls

in the presentation, they specifically say that they HAVE NOT BATCHED drawcalls in the mantle version because they didn't need to, really if you need me to spoon feed you this there is no helping you

as you mention, it is an extreme case and it isn't one that has any real bearing on me as a gamer

if you want to see an example of the benefits of command lists, look at these results, Civ5 does use command lists, and is an RTS type game like SS;
http://www.anandtech.com/show/7189/choosing-a-gaming-cpu-september-2013/8

a pair of GTX580's beating a pair of 7970's (from October 2013 so shouldn't be down to drivers)

Criticize my text formulation. good grief. what does that have to do with mantle? your just using it to try and get a rise out of me, once again we have trying to force home nonsense and getting personal when frustrated at me because of your failure. Your not the first. i get that a lot around here when people get really frustrated at their inability to drive an agenda.

Your still missing the point, or at least that's how it appears.

So let me try this again.

It is designed to ratchet up the calculation handles to the point where the DX API cannot cope to show you where the limits are and what happens.

It is designed to do the same thing with Mantle. it will also push the Mantle API to it limits which (just as in DX) results in low FPS.

If you create a game you program that game with Parallel handle limits, if the API cannot process more than x number of handles the game will never ask for more than that number, they do this to avoid massive slowdowns.

The Star Swarm app is designed to push beyond the limits, it wants to show you those massive slowdowns.

in the presentation, they specifically say that they HAVE NOT BATCHED drawcalls in the mantle version because they didn't need to

Exactly! what don't you understand about that? Your missing something as you think this makes your point. it does not. quite the opposite.

As for;

http://www.anandtech.com/show/7189/choosing-a-gaming-cpu-september-2013/8

a pair of GTX580's beating a pair of 7970's (from October 2013 so shouldn't be down to drivers)

CrossFire doesn't work in Chiv5, thats the reason.

 

[andybird123]

Criticize my text formulation. good grief. what does that have to do with mantle? your just using it to try and get a rise out of me, once again we have trying to force home nonsense and getting personal when frustrated at me because of your failure. Your not the first. i get that a lot around here when people get really frustrated at their inability to drive an agenda.

Your still missing the point, or at least that's how it appears.

So let me try this again.



Exactly! what don't you understand about that? Your missing something as you think this makes your point. it does not. quite the opposite.

As for;

CrossFire doesn't work in Chiv5, thats the reason.

80fps to 120 is crossfore not working? Then where did the exttra frames come from?
Again they are running a delberately cpu bound bench, it is a cpu review duh
Since when should a single 580 match a single 7970

Command lists help reduce cpu bottleneck, sound familiar?

The only thing im getting frustrated at is your holier than thou, i know everything you know nothing approach to discussion, when from where im sitting it is you who is driving an agenda through ignorance

You are the one that started with the name calling when it was totally uncalled for, you think that doing so makes you clevererer which it clearly doesnt

 

[humbug]

80fps to 120 is crossfore not working? Then where did the exttra frames come from?
Again they are running a delberately cpu bound bench, it is a cpu review duh
Since when should a single 580 match a single 7970

Command lists help reduce cpu bottleneck, sound familiar?

Right.

And

they HAVE NOT BATCHED drawcalls in the mantle version because they didn't need to

Did you get that?

In other words Mantle on its own could handle more Draw Calls "without the need to batch"

Of course its a "CPU bound Bench" you still don't understand that this is 'the whole point' of it.
This is starting to look like something out of a Monti Python sketch.

 

[carrot01]

since iv installed the beta drivers, once iv stopped/crashed battlefield 4 my gpu clocks stay in 3dmode and the gpu usage is stuck at 100% at desktop anyone else having this issue??

 

[vonex]

yup, just came from bf3 and clock speed is stuck at 1000mhz but usage is 0%

 

[andybird123]

Right.

And Did you get that?

In other words Mantle on its own could handle more Draw Calls "without the need to batch"

Of course its a "CPU bound Bench" you still don't understand that this is 'the whole point' of it.
This is starting to look like something out of a Monti Python sketch.

It is you who is missing the point, my point is that their DX implementation is not fully optimised, it is trying to be an "apples for apples" comparison, which is not the same as a best case for each api

 

[humbug]

It is you who is missing the point, my point is that their DX implementation is not fully optimised, it is trying to be an "apples for apples" comparison, which is not the same as a best case for each api

Really? you know that as a fact or are you just making blanket statements?

Give me the link to where you got this from;

they specifically say that they HAVE NOT BATCHED drawcalls in the mantle version because they didn't need to

It looks to me that they may have Batched DX.

 

[andybird123]

yes, they've done some basic batching, it is a basic requirement for DX, however they have not implemented DX command lists (which only work with Nvidia/Intel drivers because AMD have chosen not to implement them in their drivers even though their hardware supports it)

any developer who spends 2-3 months on integrating mantle support, without making any attempt to support command lists (BF4 cough), is in effect gimping support for Nvidia and Intel users in DX

as I own both sets of hardware, I'd rather neither of my rigs was gimped unnecessarily, AMD could've just add driver support for command lists and everyone would see a similar boost in BF4 as what we are seeing with mantle, instead of it being tied with GCN 1.1 and/or lots of new bugs

don't get me wrong, long term, something that reduces overheads, great thing... developers spending 3 months on mantle that only supports a small subset of AMD cards, not so much
I wished they'd got it right before releasing it, instead of doing it like this

 

[arc@css]

That new Thief trailer looks stunning. I love darkness in games like this; I can become the batman of several centuries ago.

 

[Gregster]

That new Thief trailer looks stunning. I love darkness in games like this; I can become the batman of several centuries ago.

Agreed Arc. It has a feel of Tomb Raider about it also (which is a good thing for me) and I am very much looking forward to this. Anyone know when AMD are sending out the codes?

 

[triss]

I never said that, you're putting words in my mouth now to suit your argument. Its actually a decent, but brief bench as it represents a worst case scenario for putting maximum strain on both the cpu and gpu by focusing on area that shows the whole city. That's how it works in Battlefield games Rusty. When you can see everything, that's typically when the hardware is under most strain. I can understand why those it. Its why its pointless comparing it to a 15 minute gameplay bench in this instance. This is all pretty obvious stuff so perhaps we should leave it here now and get the thread back on track with Mantle feedback and bug reports. Anything to add on either of those old boy?

one slight question why did rusty get told he derailed the thread when LT did ask him to add..
Bk on topic
as expected my 5870 rig got no benefit from mantle
290 rig has about 10fps improvment and over all better mins with the odd very low spike, i do get the fogging hopefully fps will stay up when its sorted
780 rig fps have gone up imo due to the bf4 patch (not hugely aint played much on this rig would guess 5ish fps)

 

[SiDeards73]

Agreed Arc. It has a feel of Tomb Raider about it also (which is a good thing for me) and I am very much looking forward to this. Anyone know when AMD are sending out the codes?

Quoted for truth!

I usually play games and just wtpwn everything in sight, this is the first game ive watched a trailer for a thought "wow i could spend hours playing this trying to finish the whole thing without killing anything that didnt need to be killed"

Looking at the city and the various ways to get a job done its going to be excellent just watching and figuring out the perfect routes etc without getting caught, and once you finish it without killing anything, then replay it and kill EVERYTHING! hahaha

 

[Sgt_Pepper]

Quoted for truth!

I usually play games and just wtpwn everything in sight, this is the first game ive watched a trailer for a thought "wow i could spend hours playing this trying to finish the whole thing without killing anything that didnt need to be killed"

Looking at the city and the various ways to get a job done its going to be excellent just watching and figuring out the perfect routes etc without getting caught, and once you finish it without killing anything, then replay it and kill EVERYTHING! hahaha

Stop it, you're making me want to buy a game I had no interest in

 

[GoogalyMoogaly]

A bit more explaining on why this matters

A live multiplayer game has height width and depth, it is a 3D environment.

Whats more, every-other player that you see is live, there for where he is and what he is doing has to be calculated in relation to you, especially if he is interacting with you, shooting at you, for example.

Now, there may be 100's of different simultaneous calculations going on with that player alone, all of which is done on the CPU.
If your GPU is rendering that image at 60 FPS then those calculations need to be refreshed and recalculated 60 times in one second. this is where latency comes in, if you have 60 positioning calculations in one second then you have better accuracy and stand a better chance of hitting your target than if you only had 30 positioning calculations in that same second. (30 FPS)

This performance depends on two things, the ability of your CPU to run those calculation fast, and the API (D3D / Mantle) ability to process what the CPU has calculated, IE tell the GPU where everything is in the image its just about to render.

If the GPU does not get those calculations at the time it expects then it will wait for them, the result of that is the GPU will not render the image in the allotted time and your FPS will drop.
So, if D3D can process 4.000 calculations in the time it takes the GPU to render 60 such frame in one second, and the GPU is asking for 3.990 calculations then D3D will hand the calculations over at 60 per second intervals.
If the GPU is asking for 8.000 calculations then D3D being limited to 4.000 will hand over 8.000 but take twice as long in doing it, the result is the GPU will only render 30 images in that one second allotted time, (30 FPS)
Higher latency, less accurate positioning, your at a disadvantage.

If Mantle can process 10.000 then it has no problem handing over 8.000, thus the FPS remain steady and high, you have the advantage.

So using Mantle in BF4 is like cheating?
I'm not a fan of cheating ta


As for the Thief video, am I the only one that the more they see of Thief the more they hope it'll have a built in benchmark as otherwise I'll have absolutely no reason to install it?

 

[K1LaW8tt5]

going back to 13.12 drivers. it all seems to work for a while then everything breaks. bf4 just crashes and when i do get in game now its a mess.
wrong idle clocks now aswell. same thing happened yesterday. but reinstalling 14.1 fixed it. i dont intend to install drivers every day so will wait for the next release.

 

[BS Dave]

AMD hardware supports command lists eh? - every days a school day. That was the secret sauce that meant Nvidia did so well in BF3...

On another note, i've just played a few rounds with mantle enabled on a single 7970 and it didn't feel smooth at all, even turning settings to low to allow mantle to do it's bit on the core didn't really result it fixing it. one the plus side there were only a few massive cpu spikes. oh and the light smattering of grass texture still flashes in crossfire

Lt has anyone done any tests with HyperThreading on and off with Mantle?

 

[andybird123]

Ive even just noticed; all the star swarm logs say "deferred contexts: disabled", which is related to command lists, so i wonder if theyve been working on it internally, but decided to disable it in the release version, curious

 

[humbug]

yes, they've done some basic batching, it is a basic requirement for DX, however they have not implemented DX command lists (which only work with Nvidia/Intel drivers because AMD have chosen not to implement them in their drivers even though their hardware supports it)

any developer who spends 2-3 months on integrating mantle support, without making any attempt to support command lists (BF4 cough), is in effect gimping support for Nvidia and Intel users in DX

as I own both sets of hardware, I'd rather neither of my rigs was gimped unnecessarily, AMD could've just add driver support for command lists and everyone would see a similar boost in BF4 as what we are seeing with mantle, instead of it being tied with GCN 1.1 and/or lots of new bugs

don't get me wrong, long term, something that reduces overheads, great thing... developers spending 3 months on mantle that only supports a small subset of AMD cards, not so much
I wished they'd got it right before releasing it, instead of doing it like this

Command lists are Multicore compute / rendering strings. and AMD do support it.

It a part of DX11, with command lists you can use different CPU threads to handle different tasks simultaneously. its those so call multithreaded games. Metro 2033, Crysis 2, BF3 and BF4...... and i do believe the Star Swarm app.

Not every DX11 game is coded with DX command lists, it depends on developers; A, having the skill and; B, having the inclination to do it.
Its not easy in DX, infact its very difficult and costly.
Besides that, 8 threads used in mantle is vastly faster than 8 thread in DX command lists.

I'm still waiting for you to send me that link wich shows "they have not implemented DX command lists" in the Star Swarm app, its creator said they had spend a long time optimizing for DX long before Mantle was even known about.
So i would like to know where you are getting your info from.

 

[andybird123]

Ive even just noticed; all the star swarm logs say "deferred contexts: disabled", which is related to command lists, so i wonder if theyve been working on it internally, but decided to disable it in the release version, curious

Also;
http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=2346619
http://api.viglink.com/api/click?fo...Page 5 - Rage3D Discussion Area&txt=Anandtech

Do a google search, amd's drivers do not properly support driver multithreading (where the driver itself multithreads instead of the game engine alone doing the multithreading and the driver remaining single threaded) as per the Anandtech article, Amd dont properly support it, they didnt when the 7970 was released and looking at civ 5 results from October they still dont as of a couple of month ago

You can find this out simply by creating a directx project and querying your own gpu to see if it supports it, AMDs drivers return a false

http://www.google.co.uk/search?site.....1.1.34.mobile-gws-hp..0.17.1343.TmWdDGjdlK4