March Budget 2016

[robfosters]

Many pensioners have a large amount of savings and only struggle because they are scared to spend any of their money, my nan for example, always complaining that she can't afford anything, she gets £270 in weekly pensions, no rent to pay and has around 60k in the bank, should she be getting winter fuel allowance and a bus pass?

If you earn above or have saving above 'x' amount then you shouldn't be illegible it's that simple, why should pensioners be excluded from helping balance the books?, we are all in this together are we not? We are now living in a society where many pensioners are better off than the working classes, it's ridiculous.

My aunt helps to look after a 94 year old who lives in the same sheltered housing as her. She's got no kids and has got £294k in the bank. I don't even know how she got a council place with that level of savings!

 

[Things change I've changed]

Well, Lowrider doesn't want any inheritance.

Hand on heart I'd would prefer a fairer society for all classes of people than a lump some of money just for 'me', a society where we don't have to rely on baby boomers inheritances to get by, a society where when I get old rather than feeling I need to have a large sum of money in the bank for security I can rely on decent quality local services for support, that is often more important than extra cash in the pensioners pocket.

 

[Deleted member 66701]

a society where when I get old rather than feeling I need to have a large sum of money in the bank for security I can rely on decent quality local services for support, that is often more important than extra cash in the pensioners pocket.

This!

Personally, I'd be happy for the state to provide ZERO cash in my retirement and provide for my necessities in retirement as state procured services.

If I want money to spend on whatever I want at my discretion, then that's where a private pension comes in.

 

[Neil79]

He's worse than IDS and with more hair..

Replace a minion with a demon and you've got this ****

 

[Rosbif]

State pensions are the elephant in the room when it comes to austerity. It's the one thing they need to get a grip on, but never will.

Even without austerity, the triple lock was too generous in my opinion.

100% agreed.

The worst thing is, attempting to discuss this will get you labelled as an elderly-hater-let'em-die-in-the-gutter scumbag betraying all the people who 'fought in the war'.

Apparently it's ok to screw over the youth and working aged people but the elderly? Can't touch them. Sacred.

 

[Destination]

Many pensioners have a large amount of savings and only struggle because they are scared to spend any of their money, my nan for example, always complaining that she can't afford anything, she gets £270 in weekly pensions, no rent to pay and has around 60k in the bank, should she be getting winter fuel allowance and a bus pass?

If you earn above or have saving above 'x' amount then you shouldn't be illegible it's that simple, why should pensioners be excluded from helping balance the books?, we are all in this together are we not? We are now living in a society where many pensioners are better off than the working classes, it's ridiculous.

This is what i am actually asking, I am not having a go, where would you set th bar, would it be the same for bus pass, and winter fuel, would they be independent?
So what levels in savings, comsidring what the govt wants us to save in pension plans, funds, savings isas.
What levels of income and savings would you suggest?

 

[RaohNS]

This!

Personally, I'd be happy for the state to provide ZERO cash in my retirement and provide for my necessities in retirement as state procured services.

If I want money to spend on whatever I want at my discretion, then that's where a private pension comes in.

Out of curiosity do you have children?

 

[RaohNS]

Well, Lowrider doesn't want any inheritance.

Good on his Nan I say. She deserves every penny of that bless her.

That's pittance compared to what is needed. What about pensioners with 8 figures. They are the ones who need to be hammered.

Of course I'm in the ban billionaires group. Nobody should really ever need any more than £100m its just obscene greed.

In a way I can see what is being said. My late granddad had plenty of money in the bank a good pension but seeing an old man wearing his hat, gloves and a coat in front of an open oven door with the heating on full hits home. There are OAPs out there who cannot afford heating.

 

[No1newts]

Realistically, what can they do?

They can't reduce it/remove it now, as that would be utterly unfair to everyone who has contributed their entire working lives.

They could just stop it from a particular generation onwards with reduced NI contributions to encourage saving for a private pension at the outset of one's working life. The benefit to that would be an ever decreasing burden on the tax payer. I'm no economist though so I am sure someone will be along in a moment to tell me why that won't work

The other issues is the pension system is so entirely ****** it is now reliant on the money we are paying in to fund those now retired. If we scaled back as you suggest it would crumble through inadequate funding.

State pension/NHS/benefits were truly great and inspired things, however in typical political fashion there was no real thought given to how things would pan out in future generations. Longer lifespans, growing populations, a generation who on the induction of benefits have been given a gold card to be professionally ****less. It has all contributed to great systems being so corrupted and broken it kind of looks inevitable that they will be removed/scaled back due to horrific mismanagement.

It is not just aligned there though, it continues today, take energy policy as an example. It is unbelievable when you hear it first time but currently this country has NO energy policy or plans beyond 2020. Nothing. Just think on that and it highlights what a mess short term, self focuses politicians (of all parties) have turned this country into.

 

[Jokester]

They can't reduce it/remove it now, as that would be utterly unfair to everyone who has contributed their entire working lives.

But that's the thing, they haven't paid in all their working lives in the sense that the taxes they paid then are used to provide for them now. The taxes they paid were used to provide better quality services for them at the time.

Our taxes now are being used to pay to support them and pay for ultimately reduced quality services now for ourselves today.

Edit: Can't remember the exact stat, but it goes something like, back in the 60s, 5 workers only had to support one pensioner's social cost (pension/health care and so on), it's projected to reach the point that 1 worker will need to support 2 pensioners in the near future.

 

[Dolph]

Realistically, what can they do?

They can't reduce it/remove it now, as that would be utterly unfair to everyone who has contributed their entire working lives.

They could just stop it from a particular generation onwards with reduced NI contributions to encourage saving for a private pension at the outset of one's working life. The benefit to that would be an ever decreasing burden on the tax payer. I'm no economist though so I am sure someone will be along in a moment to tell me why that won't work

Citizens income. Stop the system being used to favour one group (any group) over another by having a tax and benefit system that gives and takes without favour or punishment.

 

[The Mad Rapper]

Citizens income. Stop the system being used to favour one group (any group) over another by having a tax and benefit system that gives and takes without favour or punishment.

I saw you mentioned that in an other thread. How would that would practically? Genuinely interested.

 

[Dolph]

I saw you mentioned that in an other thread. How would that would practically? Genuinely interested.

My preferred model involves using a generalised payment and offsetting against an income tax to create an effective tax free band.

Example here using a £7.5k payment and 35% flat tax, showing a break even point of approx £25k

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...rjulugi6MMLUvpB0QiRJ92E/edit?usp=docslist_api

This would replace all means tested benefits, meaning you end the approach where different groups can easily demand that other groups pay more to give them more. Any changes to tax or payment rates effect everyone.

There would be other things that need to be changed as well, we would need to build more social housing and manage allocation better, improve the social care side of disability management and have transitional processes in place to support people encouraged to make poor choices by the current system, but it would improve things massively.

 

[Destination]

Okay, lets explore that.
Say someone earns 50k, they have 7.5k income on top due to the payment, and they pay tax at a flat rate of 35%. So 57.5k income, tax of 20125, take home 37375.
Do you get the allowance at 16, 18, when working? When born?

Is healthcare free? Is education free? What about universities?
Can I claim any sort of tax deduction for health and education expenses?
How does the rest of it work?

 

[Dolph]

Okay, lets explore that.
Say someone earns 50k, they have 7.5k income on top due to the payment, and they pay tax at a flat rate of 35%. So 57.5k income, tax of 20125, take home 37375.
Do you get the allowance at 16, 18, when working? When born?

Is healthcare free? Is education free? What about universities?
Can I claim any sort of tax deduction for health and education expenses?
How does the rest of it work?

Off the top of my head, allowance starts at 18 (this ties in with school leaving age after all). Your calculation is wrong though, you don't pay tax on the £7.5k, so the tax is 17,500 and total take home is 40k.

Health care, education remain as they are now. No tax deductions claimable, but as I mentioned, there needs to be a rethink of social care provision as part of the implementation.

 

[DarrenM343]

We are now living in a society where many pensioners are better off than the working classes, it's ridiculous.

When you get old and decrepit you'll want to be "comfortable too". It's not nice being old, it can be stressful, with lots of health issues.

I think everyone deserves a decent standard of living, and especially in retirement.
The nan for example might have worked hard and saved to put that £60k away (which isn't a lot these days), so why should she get any less than maybe someone who has wasted all their money over the years on fags, alcohol, holidays and partying etc. Unfortunately it's not easy to see who has just been unlucky with work and support them more. SHould someone who has to be rent in their retirement get more than the nan? I know quite a few who have saved hard to put themselves into a good position in retirement by not wasting their money during their younger years.

Should a lottery winner who spent all their cash be any more or less entitled to a bus pass when they retire than anyone else?

One problem these days is that people spend too much and borrow too much but will expect to be extra cared for in their old age.

Some do take the mickey tho. I have a wealthy uncle who claimed unemployment benefit when he retired at a young age and even got himself a job for a while as they threatened to stop his benefit. He did finally think "sod this" and just go fully into retirement. Then again, he paid his taxes, he was entitled to unemployment benefit if he wasn't working and not retired? . Mixed feelings really. Personally I wouldn't have claimed it.

 

[Slam62]

There is no answer except to reduce the cost of living, no measures are being taken to reduce the cost of living.

In fact the cost of living is being increased.

 

[Deleted member 66701]

why should pensioners be excluded from helping balance the books?

Because they are the demographic with the highest voting participation.

 

[Slam62]

The banks create credit for BTL and mortgages, they then steal the interest from the economy, interest on money that doesn't exist.
If we halved the cost of renting or buying a house overnight, only the bankrupt banks would lose out, the wider economy would prosper.
The pensioners are a red herring, small beer. Don't let the corrupt political establishment distract you from reality. There is plenty of money, the economy can thrive, just stop propping up the inefficient banks.

 

[Dolph]

The banks create credit for BTL and mortgages, they then steal the interest from the economy, interest on money that doesn't exist.
If we halved the cost of renting or buying a house overnight, only the bankrupt banks would lose out, the wider economy would prosper.
The pensioners are a red herring, small beer. Don't let the corrupt political establishment distract you from reality. There is plenty of money, the economy can thrive, just stop propping up the inefficient banks.

Just No.