McLaren Honda

As said the only team I can se him leaving Mercedes for is Ferrari. Mercedes won't be around forever. No manufacturer ever is in F1. Save Ferrari but they don't stay out of the goodness of their hearts,mother stay for the extra money they get and, well, Ferrari and Formula 1 go together like Manor and having no money.
 
Glaucus said:
surly Alonso is now done? no where to go and is getting on.
and McLaren/honda is a laughing stock.

mclaren going back to Mercedes wont get them what they want. Its nigh on impossible to beat the factory team.
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Age doesn't really matter. Look how old Mansell was when he won F1 and Indy. Look at the age of UFC fighters a much more physically demanding sport. Drivers are routinely tested along with their reactions, so they'll easily know if they've lost anything. Linford christie was well into his 30s when he ran some of fastest times.
 
englishpremier said:
Age doesn't really matter. Look how old Mansell was when he won F1 and Indy. Look at the age of UFC fighters a much more physically demanding sport. Drivers are routinely tested along with their reactions, so they'll easily know if they've lost anything. Linford christie was well into his 30s when he ran some of fastest times.
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was more of due to his age, i doubt he wants to be trundling around at the back and there's not really anywhere for him to go. He could still have a great career in another formula.
Rather than hes lost anything.
 
Glaucus said:
was more of due to his age, i doubt he wants to be trundling around at the back and there's not really anywhere for him to go. He could still have a great career in another formula.
Rather than hes lost anything.
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Yeah fair point.

Can't imagine any top drivers wanting to drive for McLaren until they have a clear plan to move forward.
 
Michael Schumacher signed for a failing Ferrari team and brought his winning Benetton key staff with him and transformed the Ferrari team into an incredible winning machine. Could Lewis transform McLaren's future into a winning one by returning and bringing key Mercedes personnel.
 
Mark365 said:
Michael Schumacher signed for a failing Ferrari team and brought his winning Benetton key staff with him and transformed the Ferrari team into an incredible winning machine. Could Lewis transform McLaren's future into a winning one by returning and bringing key Mercedes personnel.
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That's probably what Alonso thought he was doing when he joined the Ron and Honda show. New start, new opportunity, re-birth of the team, but it didn't quite work out like that.
 
Mark365 said:
Michael Schumacher signed for a failing Ferrari team
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While they hadn't won a title for some time, you'd hardly call Ferrari at the end of the 1995 season a "failing" team. Their drivers had just finished 5th and 6th in the championship, the team 3rd in the Constructors' championship. They'd won a race, the only team other than Benetton and Williams to do so. Schumacher rated the '95 car very highly when he tested it.

The McLaren of now is a far less stable base to build a future title challenge on than Ferrari was when Schumacher joined them.
 
The Hamilton story is probably closer to what Alonso hoped to achieve. After all, how many people wrote that off as a mistake?

At the time, Mercedes were solidly 9th and 10th and struggling with tyre life when he joined. Even Schumacher himself was fed up of the lack of performance.. if only he'd stuck around :(
 
EVH said:
At the time, Mercedes were solidly 9th and 10th and struggling with tyre life when he joined. Even Schumacher himself was fed up of the lack of performance.. if only he'd stuck around :(
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slightly different surely

Mercedes bought their own team - so were more likely to be around for the long haul, and by then they knew there would be a brand new engine format in a few years. Either way it was only a matter of time (and huge amounts of money behind the scenes no doubt)

Honda havent got their own team, while there was a reset over the winter in regards to tokens etc its still the same basic design /formula that they never got working well for the last two seasons (yes the layout was able to be changed, which might yet help in the long term but Merc and Ferrari already had well working engines that didnt need a layout change).

Even given Japanese sensibilities regarding saving "face" , its still not quite the same as having your own team thats failing
 
EVH said:
The Hamilton story is probably closer to what Alonso hoped to achieve. After all, how many people wrote that off as a mistake?

At the time, Mercedes were solidly 9th and 10th and struggling with tyre life when he joined. Even Schumacher himself was fed up of the lack of performance.. if only he'd stuck around :(
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The circumstances between Merc and Mclaren at the respective times was night and day. Mercedes had Brawn, they were growing slowly by bringing in the right people every year and they had in plan a 3 year development schedule, the only time the car was supposed to catch up was 2013 which got 80% of the way there, with tire life fixed as they did in 2014, they'd have had a great shot to win 2013, again steps. At the time even publicly Mercedes were widely stated to have been spending more and started development earlier on their 2014 engines which was obviously a big advantage. Brawn was a massive advantage and nothing they did was bad, they weren't failing down in 10th place, they simply hadn't attempted to be higher at that stage.

MClaren on the other hand, had a despot leader, when they did have decent cars like in 2012, the team still couldn't win. In 2013 they made the insanely stupid decision to throw away a good car that could have been competitive in 2013 and build an entirely new car. Besides the fact that it sucked, suggesting Mclaren's ability to build a new car from scratch with current personnel simply wasn't there, it meant they somehow didn't realise a completely new car in 2013 rather than working on a 2014 car was the better idea. They announced a ridiculously foolhardy decision to abandon a top engine supplier and bring in a rushed engine for 2015 from a engine supplier who has been mostly crap in F1 for the past 15 years, but were out of F1 since their last failure of an engine and car as well.

Anyway, most rumours seem to put ALonso as never wanting to go to Mclaren, but being completely out manoeuvred and left with one big pay cheque option. As I've read and what fits the sequence of events. ALonso started saying a few things against Ferrari late 2013.... Ferrari don't like people who speak out against the team so were probably looking for a way to push him out though he had a contract to end of 2015.

Alonso wanted a seat in Merc after the 2014 season unfolded or RBR as an alternative as they were stronger than Ferrari. He made insane demands on Ferrari thinking that would cause them to let him go a year early(not realising they were happy for him to leave). As he made these demands(but didn't sign for Merc or RBR), Ferrari signed Vettel, RBR weren't interested in spending 20+mil a year in wages so moved up Kvyat, Merc didn't want ALonso and Hamilton nor 2x 30mil wage guys in the same team and signed up Rosberg for another 3 years. At this point Alonso had a contract to end of 2015, but Ferrari had 2 drivers and weren't going to give him a drive so he took the one remaining option available.

No one outside of idiots on Sky Sports inside the paddock thought Honda would somehow, in 1/2 the time, make a Merc beating engine. I've read this a couple of places and again it fits the sequence of events perfectly. If Alonso meant to sign for Mclaren, he'd have announced that before Vettel/Kvyat/Rosberg signed and it wouldn't have happened so damn late.

I'm no fan of Alonso, but I don't think he's stupid enough to not see how bad moving to Mclaren would be. People within the sport just aren't that stupid. Complex engines that 2 out of 3 manufacturers didn't get right given 2.5 years.... but Honda were going to knock it out of the park after 18 months and after the other guys have another year to develop further? That anyone believed it was hilarious.

Sky hyping up anything possible, they believe everything told to them. From 2013 through to about 4 months into the 2015 season Sky were talking up Honda because Ron kept telling them it was going to be amazing. They didn't mention it was rushed and were talking about Honda's history as a reason they'd be competitive by mid season.
 
The results of the 2012 F1 championship seem to suggest a pretty average team? Many retirements, consistently in the mid table and very much a gamble. Granted Merc were investing heavily but the results weren't exactly indicative of a team on the cusp of multiple world titles. Hamilton was also leaving behind a capable 2012 McLaren.

Bringing this back to McLaren Honda, I'd love them to turn it around in a similar vein but I've no confidence they ever will. They haven't won a WDC since 2008 and are about as inconsistent as you can get for a large team. When Alonso went there I hoped that it would fall in to place for him but it hasn't :(

Michael Schumacher
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Nico Rosberg
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EVH said:
The results of the 2012 F1 championship seem to suggest a pretty average team? Many retirements, consistently in the mid table and very much a gamble. Granted Merc were investing heavily but the results weren't exactly indicative of a team on the cusp of multiple world titles. Hamilton was also leaving behind a capable 2012 McLaren.

Bringing this back to McLaren Honda, I'd love them to turn it around in a similar vein but I've no confidence they ever will. They haven't won a WDC since 2008 and are about as inconsistent as you can get for a large team. When Alonso went there I hoped that it would fall in to place for him but it hasn't :(
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The point is they WEREN'T investing heavily in 2012. In 2009 the team had something like 70mil to do the whole year, hence zero development. It was a bodged car, the car itself was a joke, it just had one trick no one else had. When everyone else had the trick it was a midfield car with no personnel and no budget. Merc bought them but they didn't spend £300mil in 2010, or 2011, or 2012, or 2013. They spent something like £110 in 2010, like £150 in 2011, etc, etc. I forget the actual numbers, they weren't going to be competitive in 10-13, they weren't going to win, they weren't spending big. They were spending more like a midfield team.

They could have gone 300mil on 2010, but from where they were that meant hiring EVERYONE that was available, that meant rushing into substandard facilities and that meant no cohesive plan. Instead they decided lets own the new regulation period. They brought in people slowly, bringing in the right people rather than just who was available. They brought in a smaller number each year which let them integrate, they had a long term plan, built up facilities, built up the staff and put the right people in the right places.

This was obvious from the outside because much of it was stated by Brawn, they were focusing on 2014, they were building back slowly, etc. They did literally everything in terms of building up perfectly. Had they thrown 300mil at the team in 2010, they'd be a much worse team today. They wouldn't have waited for the right people available so they'd go with others, then that role would be filled and they wouldn't have picked up that other guy they wanted to wait on, etc.

2010-2012 results are only relevant in context, and that is they were building up, weren't spending a patch on Mclaren/Ferrari/RBR at the time and they were purposefully building slowly.

This was the big difference, Mercedes had an extremely intelligent, sensible and positive long term plan, Mclaren had nothing. There was no outwards large change, they fired another guy under Ron, to get a new guy... under Ron, when it was Ron making the wrong decisions the whole time. Nothing changed, they weren't firing half the staff and building up over a few years into a new Mclaren. Where Merc were heavily investing for 3 years on a new engine, Mclaren signed with Honda on a massively rushed development, another sign of Ron Dennis. Demanding the impossible for no reason at all, not an intelligent decision, they didn't, like Mercedes, go hey, we can't just buy competitiveness in 18 months, lets put a 3 year plan in place, lets get in a top team builder and identify what changes need to be made. It was just Ron Dennis being Ron Dennis, he had an idea, it's nuts, but he does it anyway despite the obvious diaster he's walking in to.

Being 'average' when their plan wasn't to win the title at that stage isn't a bad thing. Being average when you're spending 300mil a year and want to be winning a championship is bad. Mclaren were bad by being average in 2013/14, Merc were simply building up in 2012 with no intention to win the title, they were where they should have been.
 
drunkenmaster said:
The point is they WEREN'T investing heavily in 2012. In 2009 the team had something like 70mil to do the whole year, hence zero development. It was a bodged car, the car itself was a joke, it just had one trick no one else had. When everyone else had the trick it was a midfield car with no personnel and no budget. Merc bought them but they didn't spend £300mil in 2010, or 2011, or 2012, or 2013. They spent something like £110 in 2010, like £150 in 2011, etc, etc. I forget the actual numbers, they weren't going to be competitive in 10-13, they weren't going to win, they weren't spending big. They were spending more like a midfield team.
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Williams and Toyota say hi. Would have been a Toyota 1-2 in the first two rounds if Brawn were not on the grid.
 
Steeps said:
Williams and Toyota say hi. Would have been a Toyota 1-2 in the first two rounds if Brawn were not on the grid.
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Apart from the 2nd place for BMW in the second round, sure. After everyone else got a double diffuser, Brawn were still up there, Toyota were pretty much nowhere.... Brawn got their trick right, Toyota/Williams did not.
 
drunkenmaster said:
In 2013 they made the insanely stupid decision to throw away a good car that could have been competitive in 2013 and build an entirely new car.
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I had forgotten about that completely! That 2012 car was great, and I remember when the 2013 car turned out to be midfield they said that was good because they had a "good base" to develop into. Absolute nonsense.

The funniest thing about the whole Honda engine mess was the amount of PR McLaren splurged everywhere just before their engine failed to run at all in testing. Then from that point they continued to draw attention to it with #testingistesting and all of that bull on Facebook/Twitter. Feel sorry for the employees of this team, as it was run into the ground by Ron for such a long time.
 
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http://www.f1technical.net/forum/viewtopic.php?p=686622&sid=89ef366d887ca18b8043cbcf5efb8ff6#p686622

Was linked to on Reddit, guy has afaik, proven several times over on that forum that he works for Honda with the F1 team.

His story pretty much matches my reading on the situation. He thought the deal when he heard it would mean coming in with new regs in 2017, when he heard it was 2015 he thought it was doomed to failure instantly due to the rushed development program. He thought the absurd requirement to fit the engine to the chassis (and overly small) was another massive mistake. He thought 2017 engines would suffer from the lack of time after finally changing concept and development, etc.

Other guys take 3 years, maybe even more, Honda get asked to make something in 1/3 of the time, with less payback(exclusivity meaning no sponsorship or money for engines from other teams), with an absurd packaging requirements, it was clear from 2013 this was going to fail badly for 2015. 2016 was the same engine refined, so got an extra years testing but it also meant around 2 years work on a concept that simply can't work, and 2 years not working on a very different engine they have now.

Another fairly big rumour going around is that Sauber are moving to Honda, either exclusivity was for 3 years or without Ron Dennis there Mclaren see the benefit in waving exclusivity now. Also mention that Sauber were talking with Honda in Sept last year and the reason they only got 2016 Ferrari engines precisely because they wouldn't want Ferrari engines past 2017. IE Ferrari want to sign people up for say 3 year deals to engines so they don't give the latest and greatest engine to a team that is leaving for another manufacturer. Same way Merc limited what data Mclaren had on the Merc engine in 2014 once they knew they were leaving.

I still just can't comprehend what made Honda sign up to not only make a hugely rushed engine... but effectively be paying Mclaren 100mil a year to do so. Free engines, 50mil sponsorship and around 30mil on drivers wages per year.... insane.
 
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