Merry Xmas Pottsey

[r0cky]

Now if only they paid customers $99 to take one, then they would shift them.

If they paid me $99 to take one I would, I'd pocket the $99 and put the card in the bin. :lol:

 

[Darkwave]

Sorry i edited my post because its not just about you in this thread.

Fair enough, I thought it was just me you were talking about.

 

[Rangler]

Back on topic, thats a good article from anandtech, possibly the best test article on Physx cards i've come across.

 

[Final8y]

nevermind

 

[Darkwave]

Well i guess it was the bit about his credibility for not giving a link to what is common knowledge to computer savvy people & which i also feel that a link was not needed but you obviously think it was.

I think a link would have been appropriate, as it was a pretty bold claim.

If it was simply a passing remark that didn't relate so much to the topic I would've ignored it.

 

[Richdog]

”Impossible? Please expand on this.”
Take any two SLI cards of the same spec. Now assuming everything is 100% perfect. You double the fillrate double the bandwidth, well double everything so the max FPS boost you can get is double. In other words 50% FPS increase is the max possible.

In reality you have bottlenecks, some things have to be in both sets of ram so ram isn’t really double. Some things are sent more then once so you don’t have effectively twice as much bandwidth as you sending more then twice as much stuff. You have driver overheads and other overheads of getting the two cards to work together. You CPU has to send more data holding you back more. In reality you don’t get 50% increase in speed from a 2nd GPU. Its more like 30% if your lucky.

Sorry i'm not with you there... how can 50% be the max possible increase? I have seen many examples of SLI going well over 50% in GPU intensive games... almost 100% increase is seen in these sort of games http://techreport.com/articles.x/11686/8

I have no idea where you are getting your figures from.

CPU’s are the same a 2nd CPU core doesn’t double the speed. 4 cores chips are not 4x faster then 1 core.

Are you trying to be the most patronising personal alive?

 

[Final8y]

I think a link would have been appropriate, as it was a pretty bold claim.

If it was simply a passing remark that didn't relate so much to the topic I would've ignored it.

Im go back to re-read just incase i missed something

 

[Darkwave]

Im go back to re-read just incase i missed something

He made a claim about a PPU (obviously in games that support it) giving a bigger performance increase than SLI/Crossfire in games that support SLI/Crossfire, or something. I don't even remember now.

The main part I remember is him saying "It's common knowledge, I don't need to provide evidence", or something along those lines. That's where I thought it was a bad move and not like Pottsey at all.

 

[Richdog]

Im go back to re-read just incase i missed something

Just bloomin drop it, Ulth did nothing wrong!!

 

[Final8y]

I think a link would have been appropriate, as it was a pretty bold claim.

If it was simply a passing remark that didn't relate so much to the topic I would've ignored it.

“So what games get a better boost from a PPU than SLi?“
Pretty much all of them that support the PPU if you’re to CPU limited to gain benefit from a 2nd GPU.

If you don’t have a super fast CPU a cheap PPU will give more FPS over an expensive 2nd GPU. Of course the best thing to do is get both a PPU and a 2nd GPU for max speed.
It was indeed a little far fetched as its a bit of a Grey area while sli would not see any speed up at cpu limitation the cases in where that happens is tiny & not worth even thinking about a PPU over another gfx card so i see your point.
So my humble apologizes to you

 

[Final8y]

Just bloomin drop it, Ulth did nothing wrong!!

As i said i will re read it & i have done so. & he is more justified than i first thought.
But your standing in a glass house most of the time yourself.

 

[Marc Fraser]

“So what games get a better boost from a PPU than SLi?“
Pretty much all of them that support the PPU if you’re to CPU limited to gain benefit from a 2nd GPU.

If you don’t have a super fast CPU a cheap PPU will give more FPS over an expensive 2nd GPU. Of course the best thing to do is get both a PPU and a 2nd GPU for max speed.
It was indeed a little far fetched as its a bit of a Grey area while sli would not see any speed up at cpu limitation the cases in where that happens is tiny & not worth even thinking about a PPU over another gfx card so i see your point.
So my humble apologizes to you

I don't really see how his comment was far fetched. He was asked what games get a better boost from a ppu than sli and explained the scenario in which this would apply. i.e. a ppu game where you are cpu limited.

I have provided a link which shows this in a real game. A link which Pottsey has posted many times in the past himself.

Whilst most games out at present are gpu limited at high resolutions most of these do not handle really complex physics such as cloth, soft bodies and liquids. If they did and the physics were calculated on the cpu you would see many more cpu limited games. Physics does seem to be one of the faster growing areas of game design so it is quite possible that you will see more cpu limited games in the future. Especially RTS and Role playing games where the cpu usually has a heavier load than in fps games.

 

[Darkwave]

I don't really see how his comment was far fetched. He was asked what games get a better boost from a ppu than sli and explained the scenario in which this would apply. i.e. a ppu game where you are cpu limited.

I for one thought that it was a bold claim and have never seen this link you speak of. If you would be so kind as to post it again then I will gladly admit that a PPU is more effective than SLI in some games and be on my way.

 

[Final8y]

I don't really see how his comment was far fetched. He was asked what games get a better boost from a ppu than sli and explained the scenario in which this would apply. i.e. a ppu game where you are cpu limited.

I have provided a link which shows this in a real game. A link which Pottsey has posted many times in the past himself.

Whilst most games out at present are gpu limited at high resolutions most of these do not handle really complex physics such as cloth, soft bodies and liquids. If they did and the physics were calculated on the cpu you would see many more cpu limited games. Physics does seem to be one of the faster growing areas of game design so it is quite possible that you will see more cpu limited games in the future. Especially RTS and Role playing games where the cpu usually has a heavier load than in fps games.

True but there is not really enough games that do so.

 

[Marc Fraser]

I for one thought that it was a bold claim and have never seen this link you speak of. If you would be so kind as to post it again then I will gladly admit that a PPU is more effective than SLI in some games and be on my way.

Check post 53 in this thread.

EDIT for ease I will repost.

http://www.anandtech.com/showdoc.aspx?i=2828&p=2

Whilst they have not tested with a multi gpu set up if you look at the graph it shows that there is no change in performance as the resolution is increased. This indicates the game is cpu limited even with the physics offloaded to the ppu. The last paragraph on page 3 also comes to this conclusion.

It is not really a bold claim though. If you are CPU limited in a game that supports the PPU you will not gain more fps by adding a second graphics card. As I explained in post 49 you will just have a second graphics card sitting idle while it waits for the cpu to send the next batch of data. If you add a ppu some of the work will be offloaded from the cpu therefore allowing it to complete its work per frame quicker and therefore send the next frame's data to the graphics card quicker.

 

[Richdog]

So what type of CPU would it need to be to present the CPU limited situation... an old core AMD? Because I certianly haven't seen a CPU weak enough to cause that amount of delay in a long time. Fact is you and Pottsey are using incredibly uncommon, almost unrealistic examples to back up your statements, ones which the majority of gamers, especially here, will not encounter. A second GPU would be much more preferable than the PPU's in 99% of situations, and that's really all that matters.

 

[badbob]

I guess the only need for aegia if current physics use 50% of a single core CPU, then it would be worthwhile- but really just how much does CPU% havok use?

 

[Darkwave]

It is not really a bold claim though. If you are CPU limited in a game that supports the PPU you will not gain more fps by adding a second graphics card. As I explained in post 49 you will just have a second graphics card sitting idle while it waits for the cpu to send the next batch of data. If you add a ppu some of the work will be offloaded from the cpu therefore allowing it to complete its work per frame quicker and therefore send the next frame's data to the graphics card quicker.

It says they didn't actually test with SLI/Crossfire though so it's a totally unfounded claim until it's tested. That might sound like I'm just nitpicking, and I'm not, but I'd like to see some real tests.

Also, we're talking about City Of Heroes. I've played that quite a lot and it has some serious issues when it comes to GPU scaling and it barely supports Radeon hardware too.

 

[MumboJumbo]

“When games don't support it?
Just because something is cheap doesn't make it useful.
What nonsense.“
Some games do support it making it useful for some people. It also works in none gaming apps. There are also tons of free games that use it as well.





“id rather just buy a second graphics card and have more fps plus it would take more stress off the cpu at times, like the physx card is supposed to?“
A 2nd graphics card puts more stress on the CPU not take stress off. Depending on your CPU a PPU can give more a FPS boost then a 2nd GPU.

While you have every right to defend your point of view you need to actually support them.

There are also tons of free games that use it as well.

What games? Tons? how many is tons, its a weight after all. Free games? what sort of games are we talking about now? Java on the internet? Who needs a ppu for that!

A 2nd graphics card puts more stress on the CPU not take stress off. Depending on your CPU a PPU can give more a FPS boost then a 2nd GPU.

SOme games will use a PPU. Most games will use a second graphics card. Putting more stress on the cpu is neither here no there. How many games stress out a quad or a c2d when overclocked? Hardly any if any for that matter!

How many games will Benefit from a second graphics card? Virtually all which require the extra oomph.

You throw about loose comments as if they are facts with nothing to support them.

You need a:

-Point (what you are arguing)

-Reasons (several reasons which do not rely on each other to be true otherwize you start making assumptions.

-Conclusion (what the reasons should all support)

Give us reasons to beleive what you say. Otherwize it is pointless. If you mearly reply well you will never listern. My answer to that is, what are we ment to be listerning too? Your statements and take them as fact with no evidence?

 

[Marc Fraser]

So what type of CPU would it need to be to present the CPU limited situation... an old core AMD? Because I certianly haven't seen a CPU weak enough to cause that amount of delay in a long time. Fact is you and Pottsey are using incredibly uncommon, almost unrealistic examples to back up your statements, ones which the majority of gamers, especially here, will not encounter. A second GPU would be much more preferable than the PPU's in 99% of situations, and that's really all that matters.

Look at the sli stalker results compared to single. They are using a core 2 duo x6800.

http://enthusiast.hardocp.com/article.html?art=MTMzNiw1LCxoZW50aHVzaWFzdA==

Resolution is 1600 X 1200.

I know Stalker does not support the ppu however Stalker is an example of a modern cpu limited game.