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Merry Xmas Pottsey

Whilst most games out at present are gpu limited at high resolutions most of these do not handle really complex physics such as cloth, soft bodies and liquids. If they did and the physics were calculated on the cpu you would see many more cpu limited games.

Sorry but have i missed something?

Which games do support cloth and soft boddies and liquids?
 
It says they didn't actually test with SLI/Crossfire though so it's a totally unfounded claim until it's tested. That might sound like I'm just nitpicking, and I'm not, but I'd like to see some real tests.

Also, we're talking about City Of Heroes. I've played that quite a lot and it has some serious issues when it comes to GPU scaling and it barely supports Radeon hardware too.

The problem is most reviews will not include these tests.

The claim though is not totally unfounded when you consider what being CPU limited means.

Take the following scenario.

The CPU sends data to the GPU to render. It then does the rest of it's work. i.e AI, physics, loading various data, handling user input, sound etc.

The cpu takes 6/100ths of a second to do the work. Whilst the CPU is doing this the GPU is rendering the scene with the data it has been sent by the cpu. Lets say it takes 2/100ths of a second to do this.

This would leave the GPU idle for 4/100ths until the CPU sends the data for the next frame.

Now lets say you add another GPU. The 2 GPU's can now render the scene in 1/100th of a second. The CPU will still take 6/100ths of a second.They are now both idle for 5/100ths of a second.

In a simple scenario like above you will not have gained by adding a second gpu.

In real games that are cpu limited there may be areas where the gpu takes longer to do its work than the cpu and becomes gpu limited for that part. In that case you main gain slightly by having a second gpu but only for the odd few frames. If you are heavily cpu limited the addition of a ppu would reduce the load on the cpu enabling it to complete its work faster and send data to the gpu faster and increase fps.
 
“So what type of CPU would it need to be to present the CPU limited situation... an old core AMD? Because I certianly haven't seen a CPU weak enough to cause that amount of delay in a long time.”
Marc Fraser posted an example but a few games spring to mind which are CPU limited from Supreme Commander to Crisis or stalker. You don’t have to have an old CPU to be CPU limited but often an old CPU is the main cause.





“What games? Tons? how many is tons, its a weight after all. Free games? what sort of games are we talking about now? Java on the internet? Who needs a ppu for that!”
Not counted up in while. 30ish, must be that by now. No idea how many free games and no not Java games but downloadable. Must be 100 odd programs/games now if you include free ones. Free games like Cellfactor or Warmonger.





“How many games will Benefit from a second graphics card? Virtually all which require the extra oomph.
Depends on your CPU and your resolution. If you play at 1024x768 and don’t have a top of the range CPU then lots of games will not benefit form a 2nd graphics card. I only said that sometimes a second graphics card is not better. Not that it’s always worse.




“Which games do support cloth and soft boddies and liquids?”
At work so this needs double checking later but off the top of my head without checking Cellfactor, GRAW 2, UT3, Warmonger, BOS 1-3 e.c.t








”While you have every right to defend your point of view you need to actually support them.”
I did backup what I said. I said “Depending on your CPU a PPU can give more a FPS boost then a 2nd GPU.” I then went on to explain why and links to benchmarks have been posted. I never said you’re always better with a PPU over a 2nd GPU. Only that there are examples where a 2nd GPU is not better. Those examples are limited but real.

Ulfhedjinn sorry if some of my posting isn’t as good quality as normal, we all have bad days.
 
It's in the huge minority though... and that's what we're talking about, not one-offs.

It may be in the minority of FPS games but other examples of CPU limited games are World in conflict and supreme commander. RTS games and RPG games tend to be more cpu limited than FPS as there is a lot more going on.

The reason I posted was because it appeared to me that you were missing the point Pottsey was making. He was talking about a very specific scenario where a PPU can provide a larger increase in fps than sli or crossfire i.e. in a ppu enabled cpu limited game. He was not talking about the majority of games and that was the point I was trying to make.

The fact that you say we are talking about the majority indicates that you may have missed that point.
 
“So what type of CPU would it need to be to present the CPU limited situation... an old core AMD? Because I certianly haven't seen a CPU weak enough to cause that amount of delay in a long time.”
Marc Fraser posted an example but a few games spring to mind which are CPU limited from Supreme Commander to Crisis or stalker. You don’t have to have an old CPU to be CPU limited but often an old CPU is the main cause.
crysis isn't cpu limited, supreme commander in my eyes is just badly coded and i cant comment on stalker. Still with a quad core or overclocked c2d you shouldn't be running into cpu limitations. Further more you have pointed out 3 games where there may be limitating but none of them support the ppu. Therefoer naming them is pointless unless your trying to say that our cpus arn't fast enough to run 3 games and therefore we need ppus? Which seems flawed.
“What games? Tons? how many is tons, its a weight after all. Free games? what sort of games are we talking about now? Java on the internet? Who needs a ppu for that!”
Not counted up in while. 30ish, must be that by now. No idea how many free games and no not Java games but downloadable. Must be 100 odd programs/games now if you include free ones. Free games like Cellfactor or Warmonger.
30ish? please which ones. Good ones? Ones people want to buy? UT3 seems to be shouted a lot but no one knows the level of physics added yet considerig the steap price of a PPU. Fuerther more graw is a badly coded game and not even that good looking. As for the free games, ive never heard of them can you give a link to them so i can check them out. They may be worth a download. But also saying there is a 100 free games taht support ppu i doubt they are all worth playing. If they were they wouldn't be free! And more to the point i doubt they are worth spending out for a PPU
“How many games will Benefit from a second graphics card? Virtually all which require the extra oomph.
Depends on your CPU and your resolution. If you play at 1024x768 and don’t have a top of the range CPU then lots of games will not benefit form a 2nd graphics card. I only said that sometimes a second graphics card is not better. Not that it’s always worse.
Very few people play at 1024x768 and those that do wont be bothered in getting a PPU and would be far better off getting a new cpu, gpu first etc.

Also anyone that has sli is likely to have a top cpu. Therefore once again your arguement is flawed.

“Which games do support cloth and soft boddies and liquids?”
At work so this needs double checking later but off the top of my head without checking Cellfactor, GRAW 2, UT3, Warmonger, BOS 1-3 e.c.t

I shall look these games up on how good their physics is in reviews. Stating ut3 is not fair as no one knows how good they will be nore do you know for certain if it will have all these in.

”While you have every right to defend your point of view you need to actually support them.”
I did backup what I said. I said “Depending on your CPU a PPU can give more a FPS boost then a 2nd GPU.” I then went on to explain why and links to benchmarks have been posted. I never said you’re always better with a PPU over a 2nd GPU. Only that there are examples where a 2nd GPU is not better. Those examples are limited but real.

When i psoted i didn;'t see the other page and therefore may have missed you backing them up.

But from the post i quoted you did not support anything you said.
 
It may be in the minority of FPS games but other examples of CPU limited games are World in conflict and supreme commander. RTS games and RPG games tend to be more cpu limited than FPS as there is a lot more going on.

The reason I posted was because it appeared to me that you were missing the point Pottsey was making. He was talking about a very specific scenario where a PPU can provide a larger increase in fps than sli or crossfire i.e. in a ppu enabled cpu limited game. He was not talking about the majority of games and that was the point I was trying to make.

The fact that you say we are talking about the majority indicates that you may have missed that point.

*sigh*

No, the point i'm making is that it's only the majority which really counts as a reason for buying a PPU for 99% of people on here... I understood what he was trying to say with his "specific scenarios", but my point is that imo in real terms they count for nought.
 
It may be in the minority of FPS games but other examples of CPU limited games are World in conflict and supreme commander. RTS games and RPG games tend to be more cpu limited than FPS as there is a lot more going on.

The reason I posted was because it appeared to me that you were missing the point Pottsey was making. He was talking about a very specific scenario where a PPU can provide a larger increase in fps than sli or crossfire i.e. in a ppu enabled cpu limited game. He was not talking about the majority of games and that was the point I was trying to make.

The fact that you say we are talking about the majority indicates that you may have missed that point.

RPGs are not usuely cpu limited they are almost always gpu limited unlses they are ugly but now days graphics are everything because it helps you get immersed into the game and they will concentrate hard on workuing the graphics card. And rts's are only cpu limited because they dont use the graphics card much. But they are limited while still hitting very high frame rates when you dont even need a lot for a RTS therefore tis a bit pointless claiming they are cpu limited. There are only a few exceptions like supreme commander and its just badly coded.

Further more why would you need a ppu in a rts?
 
crysis isn't cpu limited, supreme commander in my eyes is just badly coded and i cant comment on stalker. Still with a quad core or overclocked c2d you shouldn't be running into cpu limitations. Further more you have pointed out 3 games where there may be limitating but none of them support the ppu. Therefoer naming them is pointless unless your trying to say that our cpus arn't fast enough to run 3 games and therefore we need ppus? Which seems flawed.

I have posted a link showing that stalker is cpu limited. Whether supreme commander is badly coded or not it is cpu limited. Why do you think it is badly coded? Just because it doesn't run very well it does not mean it is badly coded. You cannot really say it is badly coded unless you know what is going on under the hood. i.e what level of AI and physics calculations it is performing. If I remember correclty the reason it is CPU limited is the high level of phyics calculations it is performing.

Just because you have a quad core it does not mean you will not get a game where you are cpu limited.

Naming them was not pointless as the question he was repying to was what modern games are CPU limited not what games would benefit from a PPU.

Very few people play at 1024x768 and those that do wont be bothered in getting a PPU and would be far better off getting a new cpu, gpu first etc.

Also anyone that has sli is likely to have a top cpu. Therefore once again your arguement is flawed.

Pottsey argument is only flawed if you think he was referring to anything other than a very specific example of a PPU enabled game where you are CPU limited.
 
I have posted a link showing that stalker is cpu limited. Whether supreme commander is badly coded or not it is cpu limited. Why do you think it is badly coded? Just because it doesn't run very well it does not mean it is badly coded. You cannot really say it is badly coded unless you know what is going on under the hood. i.e what level of AI and physics calculations it is performing. If I remember correclty the reason it is CPU limited is the high level of phyics calculations it is performing.

Just because you have a quad core it does not mean you will not get a game where you are cpu limited.

Naming them was not pointless as the question he was repying to was what modern games are CPU limited not what games would benefit from a PPU.
I say it is badly coded because the way it performs i beleive so. There cannot be so much physics that the current cpus runnig now run so badly. But then again ive not seen any recent benchmarks. Perhaps with new patchs etc it is runnign a lot better? it is quite likely it could be. And what frames is it being "limited" on? 50fps is by far enough to play a rts.

As for the naming those games being pointless i presumed you would read between the lines. I oftern say things knowign what i mean in my head without explaining it enough.

One of his stated reasons for needing PPU's is taht cpus cant/wont be able to handle it. The point is every game he has stated that is cpu limited doesn't run or need a PPU. Therefore it is quite likly that in the games where physics could be applied the cpu may not struggle so much.

Pottsey argument is only flawed if you think he was referring to anything other than a very specific example of a PPU enabled game where you are CPU limited.

Sorry but it is flawed as he was replying to me saying that almost every game that needs extra power will benefit from sli where as hardly any will from a PPU. Also his example is just silly. Who would have sli and only run games at a resolution of 1024x7xx ?? Who would buy a ppu iof you could only afford a pc to run at that resolution also.
 
RPGs are not usuely cpu limited they are almost always gpu limited unlses they are ugly but now days graphics are everything because it helps you get immersed into the game and they will concentrate hard on workuing the graphics card. And rts's are only cpu limited because they dont use the graphics card much. But they are limited while still hitting very high frame rates when you dont even need a lot for a RTS therefore tis a bit pointless claiming they are cpu limited. There are only a few exceptions like supreme commander and its just badly coded.

Further more why would you need a ppu in a rts?

Supreme commander uses a fairly sophisticated physics system to model its projectiles. As I mentioned in my previous post this is probably why it is CPU limited and runs slowly. Offloading the calculations to a ppu would provide a nice speed increase.

A PPU would probaly be very effective in a game like the total war series where you have thousands of units and thousands of projectiles. By using a PPU to handle or assist with the physics you could have all these units modeled as rag doll characters which react correclty to explosions and have fully destructable terrain, etc.
 
Supreme commander uses a fairly sophisticated physics system to model its projectiles. As I mentioned in my previous post this is probably why it is CPU limited and runs slowly. Offloading the calculations to a ppu would provide a nice speed increase.

A PPU would probaly be very effective in a game like the total war series where you have thousands of units and thousands of projectiles. By using a PPU to handle or assist with the physics you could have all these units modeled as rag doll characters which react correclty to explosions and have fully destructable terrain, etc.

That would be pritty hard for not much gain considering the maps you play on plus the fact that there could be a lot of bugs which so many maps and units etc.

Also total war series is quite easly palyed on my 3500 and 6800 right now and ive put things up from defult. Its not a very demanding game unless you play online with lots of units on the map.
 
That would be pritty hard for not much gain considering the maps you play on plus the fact that there could be a lot of bugs which so many maps and units etc.

Also total war series is quite easly palyed on my 3500 and 6800 right now and ive put things up from defult. Its not a very demanding game unless you play online with lots of units on the map.

I am not talking about using a PPU in the current total war games so the way the current one runs has nothing to do with it. I was giving you an example of how you could use a ppu in a rts game and get a benefit.
 
I am not talking about using a PPU in the current total war games so the way the current one runs has nothing to do with it. I was giving you an example of how you could use a ppu in a rts game and get a benefit.

You mean they could add more effects then i presume. A total war game with some extreme effects would be awsome and partner that with some effects in UT3 which are worth while the cost. You may have an excuse to get one. Probably need a 3rd cracking game.

the thing is loads of games support a ppu but half of them just give better fps and out of the ones with serposid better physics things are they really noticeable and worth 100 quid?
 
“Further more you have pointed out 3 games where there may be limitating but none of them support the ppu. Therefoer naming them is pointless unless your trying to say that our cpus arn't fast enough to run 3 games and therefore we need ppus? Which seems flawed.”
I was talking about the 2nd GPU doesn’t always give you a FPS increase. It doesn’t matter those games don’t use a PPU as they are CPU limited and adding a 2nd SLI GPU wouldn’t boost FPS proving my point. I was only pointing out not all games benefit from a 2nd GPU.





“30ish? please which ones. Good ones? Ones people want to buy? UT3 seems to be shouted a lot but no one knows the level of physics added yet considerig the steap price of a PPU.” & “Stating ut3 is not fair as no one knows how good they will be nore do you know for certain if it will have all these in.”
What do you mean no one knows the level of physics added? UT3 is out, the PPU content is out. Anyone can try it. Steep price? The PPU just got a price drop.

List of games and none gaming applications
http://personal.inet.fi/atk/kjh2348fs/ageia_physx.html#gameslist
http://www.hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=1141844

Ut3 is out in shops in the UK and you can download extra stuff from http://www.ageia.com/physx/ut3.html works without the PPU.




“As for the free games, ive never heard of them can you give a link to them so i can check them out. They may be worth a download.”
See above links for lots of links. The two main ones are
http://www.ageia.com/physx/cfr.html
http://www.ageia.com/physx/warmonger.html (beta still)





“Very few people play at 1024x768 and those that do wont be bothered in getting a PPU and would be far better off getting a new cpu, gpu first etc.”
Check resolutions polls and surveys. 1024x768 and 1280x1024 are the main resolutions used.
http://www.steampowered.com/status/survey.html more then 75% of people use the resolutions I stated.
 
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“Sorry i'm not with you there... how can 50% be the max possible increase? I have seen many examples of SLI going well over 50% in GPU intensive games... almost 100% increase is seen in these sort of games http://techreport.com/articles.x/11686/8”
Where is the 100% increase? I don’t see a single benchmark going over 50%. Can you link to an increase’s over 50%?

If you double the raw speed then the max FPS you can get is double. 50% is double. I don’t see how it’s possible to double the speed and get more then double the performance. With two cards the same in sli you should always get below a 50% speed increase. SLI is better most of the time just not 100% of the time.





“I think a link would have been appropriate, as it was a pretty bold claim.”
It’s not a bold claim it makes perfect sense. If your CPU limited adding a 2nd GPU does nothing with no FPS increase. If you CPU limited adding a PPU increase’s FPS as your less CPU limited. It doesn’t happen in most games but it can happen. Take City of Heros a PPU gives up to a 30% FPS boost from freeing up the CPU, if you CPU limited in that then adding a 2nd GPU will not give you a 30% FPS boost. I am not saying go get a PPU over SLI. Just that SLI is not 100% better all the time like was said.
 
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Another week, another ppu bashing thread.

Personally, I am enjoying ut3 with my m1730, ppu really does show it's worth.

Reason why sales have gone up are probably because of the m1730's non removable ppu option :p

In all honesty, I wouldn't go out and buy one of these, not even a pci-e or a newer, faster one. The differences are so small that it's just not worth it. (once you go past the fancy explosions)
 
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“Sorry i'm not with you there... how can 50% be the max possible increase? I have seen many examples of SLI going well over 50% in GPU intensive games... almost 100% increase is seen in these sort of games http://techreport.com/articles.x/11686/8”
Where is the 100% increase? I don’t see a single benchmark going over 50%. Can you link to an increase’s over 50%?.

Are you blind? The graphs are in that link Pottsey...

Graph 1
  • GTX = 54.1 average FPS
  • GTX SLI = 88.6 average FPS

That's over 50%.

Graph 2

  • GTX = 32.7 average FPS
  • GTX SLI = 64.1 average FPS

That's almost spot on 100% increase.

If you double the raw speed then the max FPS you can get is double. 50% is double. I don’t see how it’s possible to double the speed and get more then double the performance. With two cards the same in sli you should always get below a 50% speed increase. SLI is better most of the time just not 100% of the time.

+50% increase is double? Err no... that's +50%, or a 0.5 increase eg: 50 + 50% increase = 75. Not double. 50 + 100% increase = 100. Double.
 
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