Monaco Grand Prix 2013, Monte Carlo - Race 6/19

doesnt have its own thread so though i'd post it here, there is a pirelli press conference at 1pm CET today regarding i guess the merc tyre test etc.

http://www.pirelli.com/tyre/ww/en/f1/f1webcast.html


http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/22728232

I think rb and Ferrari knew about it but decided to keep stum and use it as a protest at Monaco and failed.
And it was not 3 days. It was held over 3 days because of the weather.

""but we booked the circuit in our name two days after an F1 race where people turn up and take photos."
 
From what i heard of the press conference, it wasnt secret, but pirelli are under no obligation to notify the other teams of the test taking place as it is a private pirelli r&d test.

The fia claimes that they had said to both merc and pirelli that they could run the 2013 car as long as all teams were offered the same oppertunity, pirelly have refuted this, saying that all correspendance regarding the 2013 car was between was directly between the fia and merc. Pirelli's only responsibility was to offer the 1000km test to all teams, which they did early last year, what car was run is a seperate issue.

will be interesting to see what the fia and merc have to say next now that pirelli has made their side of the story clear.
 
If it was a completely blind test for 2014 spec tyres I can't really see the problem.

There was nothing to stop them testing other settings to combat their apparent wear issues. They may have been unable to fully assess the tyres, and perhaps the management of those tyres, but they could still test different set up approaches to evaluate wear itself.

That, plus they could have been validating all manner of development aero parts.

The only thing they might not be able to fully assess is the 2014 tyres.
 
To me this still stinks of the FIA trying to help Merc (are they worried Merc will pull out of F1 as a factory based team) with their tyre issues and got found out

Too many totally seperate legal teams would have had to make so many mistakes I just cant believe anything about it
 
There was nothing to stop them testing other settings to combat their apparent wear issues. They may have been unable to fully assess the tyres, and perhaps the management of those tyres, but they could still test different set up approaches to evaluate wear itself.

That, plus they could have been validating all manner of development aero parts.

The only thing they might not be able to fully assess is the 2014 tyres.

It didn't do them much good if Monaco was anything to go by! :p

Seriously, the Merc has had poor tyre wear for three years, one minor test on unknown tyres isn't going to solve it.

Having said that, you would have thought the extra practice would have helped Hamilton with his braking issues but it clearly didn't!
 
There was nothing to stop them testing other settings to combat their apparent wear issues. They may have been unable to fully assess the tyres, and perhaps the management of those tyres, but they could still test different set up approaches to evaluate wear itself.

That, plus they could have been validating all manner of development aero parts.

The only thing they might not be able to fully assess is the 2014 tyres.

apparently Pirelli was calling the shots, they cant test tyres properly if the team is using their own setups and changing them all the time, Pirelli will have directed them with specific setups so as not to invalidate their testing. This was a private r&d ( not secret in the underhand way, just typical confidential r&d and merc were probably bound by confidentiality aswell) test paid for entirely by pireli, that's not to say they wont have learned some things, but I doubt its as much as people think. When asked about the other test, the Ferrari one earlier this year that was also done under the 1000km clause Pirelli have in their contract, Pirelli didn't even answer who it was and simply said it was confidential, which I guess is their prerogative if your essentially paying a team to provide a service to you so you can carry out some private r&d.

Also no 2013 tyres were run, tyres of a similar construction (Kevlar) but different compounds to those being tested in free practice from Canada were tested, but they were not the same tyres.
 
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Come next race when they both go backwards again, all will be forgotten. If you could pass in Monaco I fear the outcome would have been Vettel pushing more and standing on the top step. This tyre issue seems to be something fundamental in the cars design, willing to bet they won't have really fixed the issue by the end of the season. Just hoping they can pin point it for next year and the new reg changes.
 
It didn't do them much good if Monaco was anything to go by! :p

Seriously, the Merc has had poor tyre wear for three years, one minor test on unknown tyres isn't going to solve it.

Yeah, they performed horribly at Monaco. And yes, while they've been awful at conserving tyres since Mercedes took over, they're not going to solve the issue, but if it helps them a little bit, then they've gained an advantage out of it—however small.

apparently Pirelli was calling the shots

If Pirelli were calling the shots, then they should have had a Pirelli test driver in the car, or at the very worst, a young Mercedes driver. If the test was to be of no benefit of Mercedes, then they wouldn't have bothered using Rosberg and Hamilton. Make no mistake, Mercedes used this as a test to benefit themselves to at least some degree.
 
Yeah, they performed horribly at Monaco. And yes, while they've been awful at conserving tyres since Mercedes took over, they're not going to solve the issue, but if it helps them a little bit, then they've gained an advantage out of it—however small.



If Pirelli were calling the shots, then they should have had a Pirelli test driver in the car, or at the very worst, a young Mercedes driver. If the test was to be of no benefit of Mercedes, then they wouldn't have bothered using Rosberg and Hamilton. Make no mistake, Mercedes used this as a test to benefit themselves to at least some degree.

there is nothing to say they had to have a Pirelli test driver in the rules, the Ferrari test earlier this year used pedro de la rosa, Ferraris current development driver, yet no one is bothered about that as it was in a 2011 car, the 2013 car being run is the only issue in all this. Of course Mercedes will have gained something, its why other teams like Ferrari are desperate to find out if they can do the same, 1000km of running is good for more than just tyre testing, but in order to maximise the potential of the test which was scheduled for only 2 days originaly but took 3 due to weather, it doesn't make any sense to put in a driver unfamiliar with the car, as you will lose x amount of time getting them up to speed, and they may never reach the level of the current drivers within the time allotted, for Pirelli to get the most value out of the test, it qhad to be their current drivers.. There is no issue about the drivers Pirelli are perfectly within their rights to hire Mercedes and their current drivers to perform the test, at least according to Pirelli and many figures in the paddock.
 
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Analysis: Letter suggests that Pirelli broke ‘sporting equity’ promise to teams and FIA
While we wait for Jean Todt to decide whether or not the case against Mercedes is passed on the International Tribunal, Pirelli could also find itself in serious trouble with the FIA over the affair.

Pirelli is not a competitor and can thus not be sanctioned through the normal FIA channels. However, there is an alternative scenario. Crucially, as a sole supplier Pirelli has a contractual obligation with the FIA to guarantee ‘sporting equity’ – and if the FIA ultimately deems that that this has not been the case, then it could in theory take legal action.

Understandably the FIA may be reluctant to follow such a course, but if Pirelli is deemed to have not fulfilled its contractual obligations one could speculate that the Italian company’s bid to retain its role as sole supplier from 2014 could be weakened.

That would leave the door open for Michelin to bid for the tender for the new F1 contract, although as the FIA’s tender system makes clear, any new supplier would have course first have to conclude a commercial deal with Bernie Ecclestone, for trackside advertising and so on.

Clearly Pirelli will be now be called to account to the FIA for how it behaved over the decision to run the Mercedes test, and then to subsequently keep quiet about it – and as Jean Todt has confirmed, the FIA submitted questions to Pirelli earlier this week, and is expecting answers by today.

Meanwhile some evidence of how Pirelli may struggle to prove that it has maintained its usual standards of sporting equity in the Mercedes case is provided by an intriguing document seen by this blog.

It concerns how Pirelli usually conducts its regular development testing with the 2010 Renault/Lotus chassis, as driven by the likes of Pirelli test drivers Lucas di Grassi and Jaime Alguersuari.

The contents underline the huge contrast with how the Barcelona Mercedes test was run, in total secrecy and with the regular team and drivers involved. It also poses a few questions about Ferrari’s late April Pirelli test in Barcelona, run somewhat less contentiously with the 2011 car – and thus within the sporting regulations – but without the knowledge of rivals.

The letter, written to all the teams on April 27th 2012, shows the lengths that Pirelli went to in order to ensure that Lotus F1 gained no advantage from the testing, something that rivals were concerned about when a car from a current team was chosen to replace the outdated 2009 Toyota.

After lengthy debate all the teams – including Mercedes and Ferrari – agreed that a Renault/Lotus was a good compromise. At the time the ex-Kubica/Petrov car was a midfield challenger rather than title contender, but one fast enough with which to conduct representative testing. Clearly Ferrari, Red Bull, McLaren and Mercedes did not want one of their established immediate rivals to conduct the testing, so paranoid were they about the opportunity providing a possible advantage.

Pirelli went to considerable trouble to demonstrate to teams that it would ensure that Lotus gained no benefit.

The letter stresses that the car is run by the Lotus show car team – who usually take part in demos and street events – and emphasises that no data from a test is passed to the main race team.

It also goes to great lengths to stress that key tyre data is handled not by Lotus but passed direct to Pirelli via an independent infra-red camera system run by a German company called RennWerk Gmbh, set up by former Toyota employees.

Pirelli even includes a diagram to illustrate the flow of data, and demonstrate how the Italian company and RennWerk control it, with Lotus given access to what the engineers require to be able to run the car. But special software means that even the data that Lotus works with cannot be accessed “outside the specified test events” thanks to the way it uses a data system called Atlas, which is provided by McLaren Electronics.

Crucially Pirelli gives the dates of the planned 2012 tests in Jerez, Spa, Monza and Barcelona, and offers an invitation to teams to send representatives to observe any test.

The conditions are that that are only allowed to talk to one Pirelli representative, and are not allowed inside the garage, but every effort is made to make them feel welcome – even the provision of wi-fi, somewhere to work, and a free lunch…

Pirelli also confirms that it will send a report by email, outlining the results of the test, no earlier than a week after it concludes.

Pirelli told the teams: “As already anticipated, we are happy to have one representative from each Team attending our development tests. We need to know the name of the person no later than one week before the beginning of each Test, to guarantee their access at the circuit.

“We kindly ask you to understand that the level of confidentiality during a development test is very high, and we are obliged to define clear rules for the attendance, I hope you appreciate this. We will share a run plan in the morning of each test day and we will keep representatives updated with a short briefing during the lunch break (if planned) and at the end of each test day. We will communicate the timetable of the briefing in due time.

“The briefing will be managed by our F1 Team Coordinator, Massimiliano Damiani, and no other people involved in the test from Pirelli, Lotus, Renault, Rennwerk or McLaren Electronics will be authorized to speak with anybody unless specifically decided by Pirelli.

“Our test drivers are not authorized to speak with Teams’ representatives and Teams’ representatives won’t be equipped with radios. The plan is decided by Pirelli at its sole discretion and can be modified only by Pirelli test coordinator.

“After each test we will supply a short report to summarize the results achieved. This short report will be sent by email not earlier than one week after the end of the test, when we have completed all our analysis.

No telemetry data will be shared with the Teams’ representatives.”

In further emphasising that Lotus does not gain any advantage, Pirelli told the teams:

“They will do a normal “reliability” debrief with the driver at the end of each day but they will not be involved in the results and findings from the test, so this part of the debrief should be done exclusively by the Pirelli Race Engineer with the driver.

“They will not participate in any kind of post analysis of the data.

“They will not know tyre compound or construction in the Runplan unless it has a consequence on ride heights.

“They will send us a basic pre-event analysis containing fuel effect, expected laptime and base setup.

“At the end of each day, they will send us the Runsheet containing laptime, driver comments and setup changes.”

Pirelli goes to great lengths to show that the data cannot be used by Lotus.

“LOTUS is running usual data processing during the event (vTAG). RENNWERK is monitoring the data processing to avoid unwanted data generation

“LOTUS cannot export any data due to specific ATLAS licenses with data export functions disabled

“The only exception is the generation of statistics for safe running of the car and lifing purposes. RENNWERK is monitoring these exports to avoid unwanted data generation and export.

“Apart from the above exception, PIRELLI is the only user to be able to export and transfer data out of the LOTUS Show Car Team Network

“All data are retained inside the LOTUS Show Car Team Network

“Mechanisms like encrypted hard discs, locked USB ports and monitoring of network traffic are installed to prevent unwanted data removal

“Usage of PIRELLI owned ATLAS licenses ensures that data cannot be accessed outside the specified test events

“RENNWERK will monitor licence usage and data security mechanisms during the events

Given the above provisions it’s perhaps not surprising that rivals were somewhat taken aback when news of the Mercedes test emerged, and indeed the Ferrari session, even if it was conducted with an old car.

The other teams were not told it was happening, they were not invited to attend as observers, and they have yet to receive any reports about either the Ferrari or Mercedes tests, in apparent contradiction of Pirelli’s usual policy, as outlined above.

The crucial question however is did Pirelli and its partner Rennwerk follow in detail the above data security provisions when running the Ferrari and Mercedes tests? The provisions that Pirelli clearly worked so hard on because they (and all the teams) knew exactly how Lotus or anyone else could benefit by participating in a tyre test, even with an old car.

Questioned by this blog, spokesmen from both Mercedes and Ferrari stressed that it was a Pirelli test and thus they were not willing or not able to make any comment about how the tests were run, and thus not in a position to confirm that the same standards were applied, or that RennWerk was involved in monitoring the data. However, both did stress that the teams were not told what tyres Pirelli was putting on the car.

I also asked Pirelli whether the recent tests were conducted under similar conditions to the usual Renault/Lotus testing, specifically with regard to the involvement of RennWerk in controlling the flow of data.

A Pirelli spokesperson told me: “Apart from the comments Paul has already given you on the recent events, we have nothing further to add for the time being as it is company policy not to give any details about our R&D programme to the media.”

However it is due to hold a press conference today.

As noted, the FIA has asked Pirelli some questions – it will be interesting to see what the next step is…

http://adamcooperf1.com/2013/05/31/...oke-sporting-equity-promise-to-teams-and-fia/

Some good insight to how locked-down the data side of the testing is. Of course, that's if they applied the same restrictions to the Merc test ;)
 
there is nothing to say they had to have a Pirelli test driver in the rules

No, but the very fact that they used both of their race drivers shows their agenda. Even when mid-season testing was the norm teams didn't always use their race drivers.

For the purposes of the test, a 3rd party driver will take sod all getting used to. Get them in their simulator if you want to use their car—that will get them familiar with all of the necessary buttons and the way the car works.
 
No, but the very fact that they used both of their race drivers shows their agenda. Even when mid-season testing was the norm teams didn't always use their race drivers.

For the purposes of the test, a 3rd party driver will take sod all getting used to. Get them in their simulator if you want to use their car—that will get them familiar with all of the necessary buttons and the way the car works.

I don't think their agenda is in question why would many of the other teams be wanting similar tests. And I guess if it takes sod all time to get used to the car then that's why Hamilton is still struggling after how many races and multiple component redesigns and wheel changes etc and he is still struggling with certain elements of the car vs rosberg ? It may have been 3 days but your talking less than 6 hours potentially on track with 20 sets of tyres to test, if I was paying a million for a test I wouldn't want to waste a minute on driver familiarisation.
 
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Hamilton is struggling to adapt? To me he's not getting any better. Rosberg just seems his equal at worst. I'm sure Hamilton will win over, if only so the Mercedes board don't look stupid, but so far Rosberg simply looks the more complete driver.

Giancarlo Fisichella struggled to adapt to the Ferrari, but he was more than comfortable enough to drive it strongly. He might have been a couple of seconds off of Raikkonen, but that's close enough for tyre analysis.

Let's face it, losing a tenth per corner is a tiny margin compared to the complete change of engine characteristics next year.... unless of course Mercedes were testing their turbo engine... ;)

(no, I'm not being serious on that very last point)
 
yeah its been well reported that Hamilton has been struggling in particular with braking, several master cylinder redesigns later he still hasn't got it, and he's had buttons removed from the wheel as he felt it overcomplicated, he has said so himself in many interviews, given the time he has had to adjust to his new surroundings he's doing very well, rosberg was always underrated, although that's just imo, but he's changing perceptions on schumachers return as people are starting to think it wasn't as bad as first thought, because rosberg is far better than people thought, hamiltons not far behind despite being in unfamiliar territory, and still working on getting the car to his liking, the braking issues are well documented.

Fact is these aren't easy machines to drive, fisichella managed, well not really, he was better off staying in the force india, but for every fisichella there is a luca badoer, who at least he was better than, the man who developed the car then as soon as he got in it struggled, brawn made it clear last sunday Pirelli had asked them for consistency above all else, he emphasised that so why would you want anyone other than the two most consistent drivers of that car, which is the current drivers.

a couple of seconds per lap is what seperates cars by years and why Pirelli have been complaining about the old lotus they use not being fast enough for realistic testing.
 
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yeah its been well reported that Hamilton has been struggling in particular with braking, several master cylinder redesigns later he still hasn't got it

Hamilton could barely brake without locking up in a McLaren, so it's no surprise that the problem hasn't miraculously disappeared in the Mercedes.

but for every fisichella there is a luca badoer, who at least he was better than, the man who developed the car then as soon as he got in it struggled
Huh? Badoer had never driven the F60, or any development of the car. :confused:
 
Hamilton could barely brake without locking up in a McLaren, so it's no surprise that the problem hasn't miraculously disappeared in the Mercedes.


Huh? Badoer had never driven the F60, or any development of the car. :confused:

lol that's true about McLaren locking up but one of the best things about it was under braking it was typically a good car in recent years.

suggest you refresh your memory on badoer and the f60 though, he helped develop it early on and drove it for two races, aswell as tested it during the year 2009. fisichella replaced him after the two race, and did scarcely better. neither came close to either massa or kimi.

http://video.ferrari.com/view/EN/f60-unveiling-luca-badoer-interview#!
 
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suggest you refresh your memory on badoer and the f60 though, he helped develop it early on and drove it for two races, aswell as tested it during the year 2009.

Yes, I'm aware that Badoer had replaced Massa, hence the "had never driven" response, meaning up until the point he got into it. You said he'd developed the car, but he hadn't even sat in it until the week before Valencia.
 
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If the data from the Ferrari and Merc test was as locked down as described in that quote above then it's even less of an issue and funny that Ferrari are making such a fuss.

However, if the teams have been able to get useful data from the test then it's pretty dodgy.

Sounds like a typical F1 scandle where everything is as clear as mud and the finger gets pointed at everyone.

I hope there's another announcement soon.
 
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