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.....
My 200mph budget build
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i know, its as big a challenge as i was expecting, trying to keep it in budget is very hard, but i set myself this task and cant quit just because its not a walk in the park 
Least the weathers nice!
Least the weathers nice!
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Watched the formula 1 today and even though it was 530pm the sun was still out so decided to fit my new radiator.
Heat is a major factor on a rotary engine so getting the temps down makes a big difference. As you can imagine, running flat out for around 32secs with 700bhp will put a lot of heat into the system, hopefully this should keep it in check.
Ive gone from the standard 35mm thick one to a 52mm ali rad, its an ebay one but has been proven to cope much better when the engine is pushed, a friend runs one that was getting 120c temps on a stock rad on trackdays, changed to this and hasnt been above 105c
Have a quick look at my online workshop guide on how to remove the rad, better to know what your doing before you come to do it.
After looking at the picture, it says i have to remove the undertray and the anti-roll bar.....bugger that i thought, ill try from the top!
removed intercooler
removed fans.....they are awesome from factory so will keep them
removed radiator, actually just pulled out from the top, dead easy, not sure why it says from the bottom!
Big Space!
Came to put the top rad hose back on and because the outlet didnt stick out as much as the stock one i couldnt get it on with my spring clamps, so cut a little bit of the plastic away, you cant see it at all so made no difference to me
Again, bottom part didnt line up as you can see
All in and sorted, the angle it sits is not as horizontal, the reason for that is because it hits the chassis when you try to go to the point where the original rad sat, you can get around this by fitting the rad from underneath but i couldnt be bothered for the case of 1-2* more angle
Its been a bit of a pain and not an oem fitment, but to be honest i didnt expect it to be, only seen people run this rad upright in the past so wasnt 100% sure what to expect, but for £100 compared to £300 for a branded one im happy to mess about fitting it as my time is free.
Just going to duct off the sides of the rad now so all the air hits the rad first
Heat is a major factor on a rotary engine so getting the temps down makes a big difference. As you can imagine, running flat out for around 32secs with 700bhp will put a lot of heat into the system, hopefully this should keep it in check.
Ive gone from the standard 35mm thick one to a 52mm ali rad, its an ebay one but has been proven to cope much better when the engine is pushed, a friend runs one that was getting 120c temps on a stock rad on trackdays, changed to this and hasnt been above 105c
Have a quick look at my online workshop guide on how to remove the rad, better to know what your doing before you come to do it.
After looking at the picture, it says i have to remove the undertray and the anti-roll bar.....bugger that i thought, ill try from the top!
removed intercooler
removed fans.....they are awesome from factory so will keep them
removed radiator, actually just pulled out from the top, dead easy, not sure why it says from the bottom!
Big Space!
Came to put the top rad hose back on and because the outlet didnt stick out as much as the stock one i couldnt get it on with my spring clamps, so cut a little bit of the plastic away, you cant see it at all so made no difference to me
Again, bottom part didnt line up as you can see
All in and sorted, the angle it sits is not as horizontal, the reason for that is because it hits the chassis when you try to go to the point where the original rad sat, you can get around this by fitting the rad from underneath but i couldnt be bothered for the case of 1-2* more angle
Its been a bit of a pain and not an oem fitment, but to be honest i didnt expect it to be, only seen people run this rad upright in the past so wasnt 100% sure what to expect, but for £100 compared to £300 for a branded one im happy to mess about fitting it as my time is free.
Just going to duct off the sides of the rad now so all the air hits the rad first
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Like Lashout says the pipe isnt on properly, it was just a random picture moment.
I actually attached it on properly but the oil cooler piping still made a kink as it just came out of the rad, so i cut about 3/4 of an inch off and now its fine
Is that oil pooling in the intake hose there?
Keep it up either way! I'm guessing that shot with the kink in the hose isn't actually it finished and clamped up BigglesPiP!
Yes it is, the stock twin turbos have seen better days, they dont smoke on boost etc but do pass oil into the inlet.
Which strangly enough is a useful thing on a rotary engine because its like an additional oil injection system into the combustion chamber, the car has oil injectors as standard and strangly enough im sure it doesnt hurt the situation
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It does yes, the outlet goes into the inlet on the turbo so potentially some of the oil maybe from that, when i get chance im gonna unplug it to see if it blows into a water bottle etc so ill know for definete, just havent had the chance, might do it tomorow
Thanks very much, ill let you know when any developments happen
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Well decided to have a play on the rollers today, basically to see if the little bit of tuning i had learned from mostly reading actually works....im hoping to get a proper wideband next month so wanted a controlled condition to have a mess till then.
So stuck it on the roller, not expecting a lot as its still on the basemap.
Start running up on the rollers and it runs lean, holds about 11.9-12afr in boost to high rpm, so back off.
Go to PIM voltage and changed to 110% for anything above 3v on the map sensor.
Do a quick pull to see where we stand and its 10.3-10.5, so super rich but gives us something to play with.
Do another full run, still on nearly stock boost(11psi) and does 326bhp@7300rpm and 287lb, but after looking at the graph power was still rising, only by maybe other 5bhp though as the torque is starting to drop off
So next run i try a bit more boost, from 0.75 to 0.81 on the power fc....try a run to find when the second turbo kicks in the wideband goes nuts and for the rest of the day we cant fix it, seems to pull a bit harder at first getting 299lb but then the boost started to drop off when the second turbo kicks in, meaning we only make 290bhp
Since i knew i only get 3 runs to perfect it this is my last run, because of this me being rather daft didnt realise how much fuel this messing about with things would use.....now got my fuel light on
So fiddle with the boost again to try and equal things out a bit.
Do the run, still cant tell what the high rpm fuelling is like but we guessed low 10s....so plenty more power to be made when i get a wideband.
Pulls cleanly till 6350rpm and then get a big misfire because the fuelpump has picked some air....meaning that im out of fuel haha.
Looking at the graph for the run, its much better, the torque hasnt dropped off and is level right until the misfire.
On that run it hit 270lb at4700rpm and held it flat to 6350rpm, the reason it was lower as i was hitting 0.1bar less on the first turbo but then holding the boost all the way.
At 6350 it made 334bhp with the power still sharply rising(as you can imagine with the torque being flat.
Looking at my other graphs at 7500rpm it would be making about 250lb which would be 357bhp....not sure if i can make it to that before i run out of injector though.....thats running potentially low 10 afrs aswell so with a low 11afr it is possible with even more power.
This is of course all hipothetical mind, but shows the engine has potential even at 0.8bar with a rubbish map.
Im sure if i had a proper mapping session with it(with a working wideband) then could get a lot of power out of this.
So stuck it on the roller, not expecting a lot as its still on the basemap.
Start running up on the rollers and it runs lean, holds about 11.9-12afr in boost to high rpm, so back off.
Go to PIM voltage and changed to 110% for anything above 3v on the map sensor.
Do a quick pull to see where we stand and its 10.3-10.5, so super rich but gives us something to play with.
Do another full run, still on nearly stock boost(11psi) and does 326bhp@7300rpm and 287lb, but after looking at the graph power was still rising, only by maybe other 5bhp though as the torque is starting to drop off
So next run i try a bit more boost, from 0.75 to 0.81 on the power fc....try a run to find when the second turbo kicks in the wideband goes nuts and for the rest of the day we cant fix it, seems to pull a bit harder at first getting 299lb but then the boost started to drop off when the second turbo kicks in, meaning we only make 290bhp
Since i knew i only get 3 runs to perfect it this is my last run, because of this me being rather daft didnt realise how much fuel this messing about with things would use.....now got my fuel light on
So fiddle with the boost again to try and equal things out a bit.
Do the run, still cant tell what the high rpm fuelling is like but we guessed low 10s....so plenty more power to be made when i get a wideband.
Pulls cleanly till 6350rpm and then get a big misfire because the fuelpump has picked some air....meaning that im out of fuel haha.
Looking at the graph for the run, its much better, the torque hasnt dropped off and is level right until the misfire.
On that run it hit 270lb at4700rpm and held it flat to 6350rpm, the reason it was lower as i was hitting 0.1bar less on the first turbo but then holding the boost all the way.
At 6350 it made 334bhp with the power still sharply rising(as you can imagine with the torque being flat.
Looking at my other graphs at 7500rpm it would be making about 250lb which would be 357bhp....not sure if i can make it to that before i run out of injector though.....thats running potentially low 10 afrs aswell so with a low 11afr it is possible with even more power.
This is of course all hipothetical mind, but shows the engine has potential even at 0.8bar with a rubbish map.
Im sure if i had a proper mapping session with it(with a working wideband) then could get a lot of power out of this.
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Well ill take 5% of the fuel out through the range when i get a wideband, id imagine from that i should pick up 10-15bhp, since its running very safe timing theres another 10bhp at least there.
The upping the boost from 0.8 to 1bar should gain another 40bhp
Basically it should do 400bhp, but will need bigger injectors or a big bump in fuel pressure to get there.
After that then single turbo power is 700bhp
The upping the boost from 0.8 to 1bar should gain another 40bhp
Basically it should do 400bhp, but will need bigger injectors or a big bump in fuel pressure to get there.
After that then single turbo power is 700bhp
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running 1680cc? i think my next problem will be ill run out of fuel
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thats not bad going, cant wait till i get a wideband so i can tune it properly myself, it running 12afr on boost shows why it was so quick at pod, running that lean is dancing with fire though.
Im gonna have it running 11-11.2 which should be a nice medium, i know ive got at least 10% more fuel to play with when i do it properly so 380bhp should be a achievable.
If i get to that point and want more power on twins then ill stick some big ones in
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do you have any pictures of it, be nice to see.
Is greg the guy who mapped the orange drag car?
Is greg the guy who mapped the orange drag car?
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i like the bonnet and wheels(nice offset)
Well the need for a wideband is pulling at me, seen them for sale for £140 so thinking of ordering one
Well the need for a wideband is pulling at me, seen them for sale for £140 so thinking of ordering one
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Im still hoping to do it for £10k including buying the car, thats my goal, if i go over by £500 then so be it but ill try my best not to.
Its quite along thread but its worth it, i go back to reread what i have put to see if theres any ideas that come to mind etc
Its quite along thread but its worth it, i go back to reread what i have put to see if theres any ideas that come to mind etc
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well its 2 things, either the breather setup or the turbos, dont get any smoke out of the turbos at all so im assuming its the breather setup, ill get a catch tank when i have a spare few pennies and let you know.
8.9AFR!! how the hell are the plugs still firing with that much fuel going though it, should take it for a blast, once the exhaust is red hot ill bet you will get some nice flames.
Be interesting to see what the EGTs are like at full throttle.
Id imagine high 12s to low 13s are your best bet on the dyno, what engines in it?
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interesting setup, quite long trumpets for a bike engine so should be torquey but you may struggle for power at the top end.
how come your running an inlet plenum, also looks like theres a restrictor you all have to run, did you calculate the litre capacity of the plenum to include engine capacity and expected power?
how come your running an inlet plenum, also looks like theres a restrictor you all have to run, did you calculate the litre capacity of the plenum to include engine capacity and expected power?
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thats a clever idea actually, you should in theory have great fast throttle power(on/off fast) as with the inlet being so big a lot of air can be drawn into the engine without it needing to pull in massive vacuum. Obviously when you flat out in a 1 gear you will quickly reach the point when the need to pull in an excessive vacuum costs you power but knowing that you might make it past peak torque and having longer runners killing top power wont matter anyway as there wouldnt be enough air to supply it.
I like it!
If thats the frame for the chassis its gonna look rather odd, any pics of previous years cars built up to have an idea.
What are the tasks you have to perform with the vehicle?
I like it!
If thats the frame for the chassis its gonna look rather odd, any pics of previous years cars built up to have an idea.
What are the tasks you have to perform with the vehicle?
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hmmm interesting, is there a minimum weight requirement, just thinking if you make it lighter you can always adjust weight around to suit different drivers.
Also tell your guys to go on a diet, its the easiest way to reduce weight and you will see that on the stop clock, you want people to have just enough strength to complete the task so theres a fair bit ill bet you can slim them down.
Also i see double wishbones all around, good choice, will hopefully help in the handling, if its a very tight and twisty track put more weight at the front, soften the front suspension up a bit and run some more camber, a good driver will be able to make use of the pointy front end and correct a little oversteer, and wheelspin wont be to bad in a restricted engine with that amount of rubber on the back.
If the circuit a series of high speed corners then take some front camber out and adjust the weight a little to the rear, this will give the car a higher stability....yes it wont be the perfect balance but we cant assume one of you will be able to find that fine limit and may end up being slower, so having a slight understeer means you will be able to keep your foot planted and actually increase your speed.
One thing your CAD guy has potentially missed out on is a diffuser, you have an upturned exhaust setup so its crying out for one, you could make it very large aswell as you shouldnt need to have much suspension travel on the rear end so that wont limit you.
Sorry to sound like im trying to tell you how to suck eggs but im just typing whats entering my mind
Also tell your guys to go on a diet, its the easiest way to reduce weight and you will see that on the stop clock, you want people to have just enough strength to complete the task so theres a fair bit ill bet you can slim them down.
Also i see double wishbones all around, good choice, will hopefully help in the handling, if its a very tight and twisty track put more weight at the front, soften the front suspension up a bit and run some more camber, a good driver will be able to make use of the pointy front end and correct a little oversteer, and wheelspin wont be to bad in a restricted engine with that amount of rubber on the back.
If the circuit a series of high speed corners then take some front camber out and adjust the weight a little to the rear, this will give the car a higher stability....yes it wont be the perfect balance but we cant assume one of you will be able to find that fine limit and may end up being slower, so having a slight understeer means you will be able to keep your foot planted and actually increase your speed.
One thing your CAD guy has potentially missed out on is a diffuser, you have an upturned exhaust setup so its crying out for one, you could make it very large aswell as you shouldnt need to have much suspension travel on the rear end so that wont limit you.
Sorry to sound like im trying to tell you how to suck eggs but im just typing whats entering my mind
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well from what you said........judges frown on wings, i wouldnt be bothered if judges poo there pants if they see a mini f1 car, if the rules allow anything, you push that to the limit, its what successfull motorsport is all about.
Like you say, your car is a tank at the moment, that means you can shift a lot of weight off it and then use that advantage to gain more downforce from aero parts
You say an average lap will be 40mph, that means ina straight line they will be doing that, drive down the road at 40mph and put your hand out the window, point it horizontal, then turn it vertical and you will see what i mean.
Since the driver will be roughly 1/4 of the total weight then karting is a good way to find out whos best, its not always the best driver who wins as the weight difference from a lighter driver might make up more time down the straights from faster accelaration and later breaking than someone who is a better driver and can carry more speed through the corners but is heavier.
Does it state in the rules about turbochargers.......i assume you know the regulations better than the back of your hand.........look at adrian newey, he pushed every boundary he could find, id be doing the same.
Give me a sec, ill have a quick blast on paint and draw some ideas
Like you say, your car is a tank at the moment, that means you can shift a lot of weight off it and then use that advantage to gain more downforce from aero parts
You say an average lap will be 40mph, that means ina straight line they will be doing that, drive down the road at 40mph and put your hand out the window, point it horizontal, then turn it vertical and you will see what i mean.
Since the driver will be roughly 1/4 of the total weight then karting is a good way to find out whos best, its not always the best driver who wins as the weight difference from a lighter driver might make up more time down the straights from faster accelaration and later breaking than someone who is a better driver and can carry more speed through the corners but is heavier.
Does it state in the rules about turbochargers.......i assume you know the regulations better than the back of your hand.........look at adrian newey, he pushed every boundary he could find, id be doing the same.
Give me a sec, ill have a quick blast on paint and draw some ideas
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damm, there was me on paint drawing all these ideas out, i would have been great if i was there next year.
the turbo setup is very easy, we could your the carberature off a r5 turbo as thats designed to run with low 20mm restrictions, also its an easy and cheap way to control fueling under boost, running a t25 off say a 200sx we would have around 150bhp+ to play with.
With that you can get up to speeds where wings help......you say autocross, this is the autocross state champion in america
http://www.tweakit.com/rx7/rx7trscca1.jpg
he hits 60mph at the end of the short straights, never gets out of second gear.
He gets massive downforce even at 30-40mph around corners, apply that downforce to the back and front of your car and you will be able to carry that much speed in the corners that it wont matter as much that your car is a fat ass.
say 350kg incl driver with 160bhp and that sort of downforce, you would be unstoppable!!
Make both wings adjustable so you flatten them out on the drag racing, turn them up to full on the handling and racing.
theres so much potential there, even for this year......your graduating dammit, wouldnt you like to compete and spank there arses as this is your only chance
the turbo setup is very easy, we could your the carberature off a r5 turbo as thats designed to run with low 20mm restrictions, also its an easy and cheap way to control fueling under boost, running a t25 off say a 200sx we would have around 150bhp+ to play with.
With that you can get up to speeds where wings help......you say autocross, this is the autocross state champion in america
http://www.tweakit.com/rx7/rx7trscca1.jpg
he hits 60mph at the end of the short straights, never gets out of second gear.
He gets massive downforce even at 30-40mph around corners, apply that downforce to the back and front of your car and you will be able to carry that much speed in the corners that it wont matter as much that your car is a fat ass.
say 350kg incl driver with 160bhp and that sort of downforce, you would be unstoppable!!
Make both wings adjustable so you flatten them out on the drag racing, turn them up to full on the handling and racing.
theres so much potential there, even for this year......your graduating dammit, wouldnt you like to compete and spank there arses as this is your only chance
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such a shame really, still least it must be a fun project, maybe give some advise and ideas to the people who come after you, give them a bit of a leg up etc
Anyway spoke about widebands earlier and ive decided to order one, spent a lot of time researching and found a controlled condition test done at a dyno with 8 of the top widebands being used and innovative motorsport came out top of all of them so im going to go with one of them.
Will do install pics etc like normal when it gets here
Anyway spoke about widebands earlier and ive decided to order one, spent a lot of time researching and found a controlled condition test done at a dyno with 8 of the top widebands being used and innovative motorsport came out top of all of them so im going to go with one of them.
Will do install pics etc like normal when it gets here
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Little update, wideband arrived in the post today.
Got it from a company named txautoplex on ebay from as you guessed it, Texas.
Ill have to admit, im always very unsure about buying from abroad, would be very easy for the company to rip you off as you cant go visit them.
But true to the guys word it was shipped out as soon as i paid and gave a tracking number so i could keep an eye on it.
He included free shipping so it only cost me £145 brand new in total and also put on the shipping docs a really low value so i didnt have to pay taxes....didnt ask him to do that so awesome!!
Id recommend buying from him as hes £30 cheaper than anyone else and gives great customer service
some random pics, ill do a full installation next week when i get warren to help me with wiring!
Gauge, was expecting it to have more depth than that which is a bonus
Bosch Lambda sensor
once i get it in ill start doing some proper tuning as my engine could really do with sorting out
Got it from a company named txautoplex on ebay from as you guessed it, Texas.
Ill have to admit, im always very unsure about buying from abroad, would be very easy for the company to rip you off as you cant go visit them.
But true to the guys word it was shipped out as soon as i paid and gave a tracking number so i could keep an eye on it.
He included free shipping so it only cost me £145 brand new in total and also put on the shipping docs a really low value so i didnt have to pay taxes....didnt ask him to do that so awesome!!
Id recommend buying from him as hes £30 cheaper than anyone else and gives great customer service
some random pics, ill do a full installation next week when i get warren to help me with wiring!
Gauge, was expecting it to have more depth than that which is a bonus
Bosch Lambda sensor
once i get it in ill start doing some proper tuning as my engine could really do with sorting out
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