Poll: National service not a bad thing?

[stewski]

But it does help. It gives people qualifications in most cases that they can use in civilian life. I spent two years studying in the R.A.F. and the qualifications I gained got me jobs once I left. So personally I see the benefit of national service. If you've never served then you don't know.

Bully for you, I spent that time drinking and dropping out of Uni, I feel that period helped me. If you've never been a University layabout alcoholic, you don't know.

Unlike others I wouldn't suggest my experience should be forced on all, why do you?

 

[jimjamuk]

Bully for you, I spent that time drinking and dropping out of Uni, I feel that period helped me. If you've never been a University layabout alcoholic, you don't know.

Unlike others I wouldn't suggest my experience should be forced on all, why do you?

You must be proud.... well it turned out for you (I assume) so fair enough now maybe if you dont have anything valid to say which isnt a dig at anyone who has any money or voted right of say Corbyn everyone else can discuss the merits of a national service.

As for me - I think I would love to do it now to be honest - as long as I could earn enough to support my family I'd do a few short stints and learn some new skills. My Dad and Grandad served in the RAF and it sad to look back now that I decided not to....

 

[stewski]

You must be proud.... well it turned out for you (I assume) so fair enough now maybe if you dont have anything valid to say which isnt a dig at anyone who has any money or voted right of say Corbyn everyone else can discuss the merits of a national service.

As for me - I think I would love to do it now to be honest - as long as I could earn enough to support my family I'd do a few short stints and learn some new skills. My Dad and Grandad served in the RAF and it sad to look back now that I decided not to....

Are you insinuating I should be less proud than others with differing experience, if so on what basis? I did learn about assembly language, finite state machines, second order differential equations and their application to circuits and mechanical systems, particle wave duality, karnaugh maps amongst a number of other things. Also I met my missus, moved into my field of expertise and made life long friends well beyond the circle of friends I had back at home.

Interesting you seem to assume I'm a pauper, or that my point that I wouldn't push my experience on everyone isn't some how valid, on a thread which appears to suggest enforcing military training on every 18 year old.

P.S. If you'd love to be in the military, what is stopping you?

 

[jimjamuk]

Are you insinuating I should be less proud than others with differing experience, if so on what basis? I did learn about assembly language, finite state machines, second order differential equations and their application to circuits and mechanical systems, particle wave duality, karnaugh maps amongst other a number of other things. Also I met my missus, moved into my field of expertise and made life long friends well beyond the circle of friends I had back at home.

Interesting you seem to assume I'm a pauper, or that my point that I wouldn't push my experience on everyone isn't some how valid, on a thread which appears to suggest enforcing military training on every 18 year old.

P.S. If you'd love to be in the military, what is stopping you?

I wasnt insinuate anything - sorry if you feel that. I just read you posts and I'm sure without going back and quoting you made a sweeping statements about over privileged "people" like that has anything to do with anything unless you had a particular view about that group of people. That stuff you list above sounds interesting.... and I'm lots of people have learned interesting stuff which ever path they took - like i said its worked out for you so great

As for the forces if it paid well enough (>60k to be realistic at the moment) and I though i'd get in then I would. If I had made that choice when I was younger then I probably wouldnt have the financial responsibilities I had now and it would have been doable. Shame I went a different direction.

As for a modern scheme Im thinking mandatory First Aid / something like DoE / Cadets if you wanted the military bits and generally community work/projects.

 

[stewski]

I wasnt insinuate anything - sorry if you feel that. I just read you posts and I'm sure without going back and quoting you made a sweeping statements about over privileged "people" like that has anything to do with anything unless you had a particular view about that group of people. That stuff you list above sounds interesting.... and I'm lots of people have learned interesting stuff which ever path they took - like i said its worked out for you so great

As for the forces if it paid well enough (>60k to be realistic at the moment) and I though i'd get in then I would. If I had made that choice when I was younger then I probably wouldnt have the financial responsibilities I had now and it would have been doable. Shame I went a different direction.

As for a modern scheme Im thinking mandatory First Aid / something like DoE / Cadets if you wanted the military bits and generally community work/projects.

If you are going to now bring up my early post and have an issue with it, to the point that you feel I shouldn't post further on this discussion, as your comment in bold below suggests.

You must be proud.... well it turned out for you (I assume) so fair enough now maybe if you dont have anything valid to say which isnt a dig at anyone who has any money or voted right of say Corbyn everyone else can discuss the merits of a national service.

I advise.
1. You do quote exactly what I said that you take issue with.
2. You clearly explain why you think it suggests what I have to say is less valid than others.

Did I "feel" you insinuated that I should be less proud? Or am I supposed to believe you meant "you must be proud" as a genuine at face value statement, even though your next statement is "now maybe if you dont have anything valid to say".

Yet another person squirming around what "National Service" on this poll is supposed to mean. Historically National Service in the UK has meant military training and in the context of world wars arguably made sense.

At this point it isn't even clear that any 2 posters who agree with the idea of a state system of National Service, are even talking about the same things.

 

[jimjamuk]

If you are going to now bring up my early post and have an issue with it, to the point that you feel I shouldn't post further on this discussion, as your comment in bold below suggests.



I advise.
1. You do quote exactly what I said that you take issue with.
2. You clearly explain why you think it suggests what I have to say is less valid than others.

Did I "feel" you insinuated that I should be less proud? Or am I supposed to believe you meant "you must be proud" as a genuine at face value statement, even though your next statement is "now maybe if you dont have anything valid to say".

Yet another person squirming around what "National Service" on this poll is supposed to mean. Historically National Service in the UK has meant military training and in the context of world wars arguably made sense.

At this point it isn't even clear that any 2 posters who agree with the idea of a state system of National Service, are even talking about the same things.

Yawn is there any point going over what you and I posted in detail line by line and carrying it on. I'm sure we both stand by our post even if we don't agree with each other.

I'm sure as National service does not exist a modern format would not be the same as a war based system hence a discussion about it

 

[stewski]

Yawn is there any point going over what you and I posted in detail line by line and carrying it on. I'm sure we both stand by our post even if we don't agree with each other.

I'm sure as National service does not exist a modern format would not be the same as a war based system hence a discussion about it

Sure thing.

A discussion doesn't usually work if one person says shut up to the other though.

I'll maintain the point, individuals (forces or otherwise) saying "my experience was great so everyone should have the same" and "if you didn't have the same experience as me you don't know" are arguably more narcissistic than the people the OP is complaining about.

As for your personal position, I'll summarise it as this.

You never joined the armed forces and somewhat regret it.
You aren't going to join the armed forces because it's unlikely to supply the 60K you "need".
You'd presumably like to enforce the armed forces route (or similar) on every 18 y/o as you think it's what they all "need".

Is that about right?

 

[FurryLemon]

As expected this turned into a bitchfest!

 

[stewski]

With the youth of today totally narcissist and preoccupied with the self...

Surely National service would bring some needed focus to them?

With unemployment and social issues rife...This could be a useful Avenue ?

I see no harm in 12 months tbh...

Thoughts?

Turned into? - above is post #1

 

[Nasher]

Problem is it's not like in the old days where anyone could rock up, join the army and be a grunt for a few years (especially since the cut backs). There are entry requirements now and it's not for everyone. Plus there's no point forcing someone to join who just isn't up to it. They would spend the entire time failing and it would be a waste of money.

The reason kids have no discipline any more is because of the schools. The kids are basically allowed to do whatever they want and theres no punishment or correction allowed, not even a bit of good ol' shouting. That's also the reason for the big shortage of teachers, many just didn't want to put up with it any more.

 

[jimjamuk]

Sure thing.

A discussion doesn't usually work if one person says shut up to the other though.

I'll maintain the point, individuals (forces or otherwise) saying "my experience was great so everyone should have the same" and "if you didn't have the same experience as me you don't know" are arguably more narcissistic than the people the OP is complaining about.

As for your personal position, I'll summarise it as this.

You never joined the armed forces and somewhat regret it.
You aren't going to join the armed forces because it's unlikely to supply the 60K you "need".
You'd presumably like to enforce the armed forces route (or similar) on every 18 y/o as you think it's what they all "need".

Is that about right?

5/10

Summerised my position fairly well although i dont regret it - yes I "need" something in that region to meet the stuff I got going on at this point in my life. Not sure why you needed to repeat it cause i know where I am thanks.

I also missed out I also wanted to be an astronaut but we can save that for another thread. Didn't say anything about forcing everyone down the military route. Just think something akin to national service would probably be good. I think I listed some possible alternatives to what's gone before

 

[stewski]

5/10

Summerised my position fairly well although i dont regret it - yes I "need" something in that region to meet the stuff I got going on at this point in my life. Not sure why you needed to repeat it cause i know where I am thanks.

I also missed out I also wanted to be an astronaut but we can save that for another thread. Didn't say anything about forcing everyone down the military route. Just think something akin to national service would probably be good. I think I listed some possible alternatives to what's gone before

Well Jim believe it or not. If we are discussing a service to the country and/or wider environment as a standard position for young people to transition through. I am not necessarily against the concept, although clearly those individuals will lose their opportunity to seek "XK" per year, that they also may feel they "need".

I have worked in Education, specifically as a Level 3 / A Level specialist helping with transitioning to HE. In my opinion it would not be easy, but would arguably be feasible to design a system of state sponsored schemes with enough variety to fulfil both needs of individuals and benefits to society.

That said currently the economy generates considerable sums of money out of this age group, through student fees (with HE probably not representing the value it once did). I certainly can't see such mandatory schemes in the current world needing to be anything like "National Service" of the past and I suspect politically no major party would have the courage to undertake it, the cost would be considerable and failure a real possibility.

 

[Sliver]

Bully for you, I spent that time drinking and dropping out of Uni, I feel that period helped me. If you've never been a University layabout alcoholic, you don't know.

Unlike others I wouldn't suggest my experience should be forced on all, why do you?

Grow up.

 

[adolf hamster]

Yes, and it doesnt just have to be military, the police, fire brigade, rnli, councils etc could all use "untrained" staff. That'd put a stop to any notion of concientious obection.

The show bad lads army covered it well, bunch of lowlifes many of whom were turned into decent citizens after a bit of 1950's shouting at.

The cadet services are pretty good at this, albeit they're voluntary but they're proof that young folk actually can do things like polish a pair of shoes, iron a shirt and tie a decent windsor knot. And thats before we get to the shooting/flying planes/driving tanks etc thats offered.

And fyi, pretty sure i'd fit the conscription bracket, so not like i'm forcing anything on the youth i wouldnt do myself.

 

[stewski]

Yes, and it doesnt just have to be military, the police, fire brigade, rnli, councils etc could all use "untrained" staff. That'd put a stop to any notion of concientious obection.

The show bad lads army covered it well, bunch of lowlifes many of whom were turned into decent citizens after a bit of 1950's shouting at.

The cadet services are pretty good at this, albeit they're voluntary but they're proof that young folk actually can do things like polish a pair of shoes, iron a shirt and tie a decent windsor knot. And thats before we get to the shooting/flying planes/driving tanks etc thats offered.

And fyi, pretty sure i'd fit the conscription bracket, so not like i'm forcing anything on the youth i wouldnt do myself.

To be fair by 18 I'd been ironing my school shirts since I was 12, polished my boots as a cadet, fired many weapons, driven several vehicles, had many jobs and really was more interested in the Laplace transform and (Calculus in general) that Uni offered.

But if you're sure a one size fits all approach is right, start a petition/send a letter to your local MP.

 

[stewski]

Grow up.

Not really an answer to why your experience is more valuable or should be enforced on others.

 

[adolf hamster]

To be fair by 18 I'd been ironing my school shirts since I was 12, polished my boots as a cadet, fired many weapons, driven several vehicles, had many jobs and really was more interested in the Laplace transform and (Calculus in general) that Uni offered.

But if you're sure a one size fits all approach is right, start a petition/send a letter to your local MP.

Well, you get my meaning, the problem is that if you have conscription you can't expect everyone to have reached that level so you do have to set the bar lower, it's not going to really be that much of a "fun" experience when the principle lesson is personal discipline and the ability to work in a team when your not all at the same level of interest/ability.

 

[robfosters]

It did the Kray twins the world of good. Turned them right around

 

[stewski]

Well, you get my meaning, the problem is that if you have conscription you can't expect everyone to have reached that level so you do have to set the bar lower, it's not going to really be that much of a "fun" experience when the principle lesson is personal discipline and the ability to work in a team when your not all at the same level of interest/ability.

I guess what Im saying is any national scheme would need to be multifaceted, whilst armed forces, police military and academia could be a useful fit, it would undoubtably be a massive political risk.

going back to the Op. I'd argue his first post typifying "youth" as narcissists who could all use presumably military training shows a complete lack of experience in the field and potentially implies narcissistic/ego mania of their own.

 

[adolf hamster]

It did the Kray twins the world of good. Turned them right around

Theres always going to be the odd handful of unrecoverable nutters.

I guess what Im saying is any national scheme would need to be multifaceted, whilst armed forces, police military and academia could be a useful fit, it would undoubtably be a massive political risk.

going back to the Op. I'd argue his first post typifying "youth" as narcasists who could all use presumably military training shows a complete lack of experience in the field and potentially implies narcistic/ego mania of their own.

Oh i'm sure it'd never get brought in, your right it'd be political suicide, but that wasnt the original question.

I guess its down to your own experience, i spent a lot of time in the atc and like yourself left at 18 with a lot of experience that i still find useful today (for example i can't not tie a good windsor knot any more), experiences i reckon it'd do kids good to have.