New and shocking footage of British troops torturing Iraqis...

dirtydog · 13 Feb 2006 at 08:10

Balddog said:
It depends entirely on your point of view.. You can either see this as a good old fashioned way of teaching yobs a lesson or you can see it as evil soldiers torturing little children..

Emotive language. I'm not saying the soldiers are "evil" or were "torturing" the youths. Their actions may be understandable but they are nonetheless wrong and should not in my opinion be condoned. As for the idiot who filmed it, words fail me. What did he think would happen if the film got into the public domain.

theleg · 13 Feb 2006 at 08:17

dirtydog said:
Emotive language. I'm not saying the soldiers are "evil" or were "torturing" the youths. Their actions may be understandable but they are nonetheless wrong and should not in my opinion be condoned. As for the idiot who filmed it, words fail me. What did he think would happen if the film got into the public domain.

Emotive language? You mean like the title of this thread?

Lets not talk of emotive language when a beating becomes torture and teens become little kids.

I dont think its 'understandable', I think its right :dunno: Id far rather see those kids given a beating and then told to bog off...much rather see that then see them put into the prison system and see them turn into something much worse.

dirtydog · 13 Feb 2006 at 08:21

Balddog said:
Emotive language? You mean like the title of this thread?

Yes, I didn't write the thread title and it is also emotive. The word 'beating' would be more appropriate as it describes what happens without putting a spin on it.

I dont think its 'understandable', I think its right :dunno: Id far rather see those kids given a beating and then told to bog off...much rather see that then see them put into the prison system and see them turn into something much worse.

Okay but what about the way they treated the dead Iraqi - do you find that acceptable? Imagine how we would feel if it was reversed and an invading army's soldiers were treating one of our dead countrymen like that. It would make it more likely we would want to fight the invading army I imagine.

theleg · 13 Feb 2006 at 08:32

dirtydog said:
Okay but what about the way they treated the dead Iraqi - do you find that acceptable? Imagine how we would feel if it was reversed and an invading army's soldiers were treating one of our dead countrymen like that. It would make it more likely we would want to fight the invading army I imagine.

Are there two videos? I dont get UK tv over here so I havent see the footage on the news, just the NOTW video which shows a bunch of soldiers dragging some guys behind the wall and giving them a kicking..Theres not a dead iraqi in the vid...Got a link to the other?

PS, you still didnt answer my question..What do you think should have been done with those guys throwing the rocks and stuff at the soldiers?

dirtydog · 13 Feb 2006 at 08:36

Balddog said:
Are there two videos? I dont get UK tv over here so I havent see the footage on the news, just the NOTW video which shows a bunch of soldiers dragging some guys behind the wall and giving them a kicking..Theres not a dead iraqi in the vid...Got a link to the other?

No I haven't seen it, just what I read on the NOTW site..

The beating sequence on the video, which appears to be a series of excerpts from the incident, takes up 60 seconds of the 3minute 12second tape. Our investigators counted 42 separate blows but there were probably many more not caught on camera.

The video also has two other shocking sequences. In one, the camera approaches an Iraqi corpse while a soldier draws back a blanket to display it as a sickening trophy.

Sniggers

The cameraman then commits an act considered the ultimate insult to an Iraqi—and kicks the dead man twice in the face, humiliating him in death. As the head of the man, aged in his 20s, is lifted to face the lens a soldier sniggers: "He's been a bad mother****er."

http://www.newsoftheworld.co.uk/story_pages/news/news1.shtml

PS, you still didnt answer my question..What do you think should have been done with those guys throwing the rocks and stuff at the soldiers?

I don't know - surely they would or should have been briefed by their superiors on what to do in that sort of situation and I'm sure it wouldn't have involved doing what they did do. Take them into custody presumably.

theleg · 13 Feb 2006 at 08:42

dirtydog said:
No I haven't seen it, just what I read on the NOTW site..

http://www.newsoftheworld.co.uk/story_pages/news/news1.shtml

Well without seeing the video or knowing the circumstances, I dont like to comment...If it was as they say then its dodgy...

I don't know - surely they would or should have been briefed by their superiors on what to do in that sort of situation and I'm sure it wouldn't have involved doing what they did do. Take them into custody presumably.

and perhaps they knew that these were just young guys with too much testosterone messing around...perhaps the soldiers knew that giving them a kicking would teach them a better lesson than throwing them in some iraqi prison.

Mundu · 13 Feb 2006 at 08:47

Balddog said:
and perhaps they knew that these were just young guys with too much testosterone messing around...perhaps the soldiers knew that giving them a kicking would teach them a better lesson than throwing them in some iraqi prison.

But that isn't their decision to make is it?

theleg · 13 Feb 2006 at 08:50

Mundu said:
But that isn't their decision to make is it?

Well yeah it kinda was...they were on the spot at the time. Im sure that in such a situation, the soldiers are given enough leeway to use their own discretion..

The British troops get a lot of good press, especially when compared to the American troops. We are renowned for treating them as people rather than classing everyone as a terrorist. Im pretty sure that they werent under orders to arrest everyone who threw rocks and have them thrown in prison. They would have been told to assess each threat and deal with it n a case by case basis...

Plus that wasnt only squaddies..there would have been an officer with them there.

dirtydog · 13 Feb 2006 at 08:53

Balddog said:
Plus that wasnt only squaddies..there would have been an officer with them there.

Are you sure? I'm far from a military expert but I thought a patrol could be led by a corporal.

theleg · 13 Feb 2006 at 08:55

dirtydog said:
Are you sure? I'm far from a military expert but I thought a patrol could be led by a corporal.

We dont know the situation but that seemed to be a base of some kind...The cameraman was armed and on some kind of guard. The riot squad guys came back into the compound at the end of the video.

DustyMiller · 13 Feb 2006 at 08:57

Kicking of a dead body is a method trained for boody traps. If the body is not dead and is a sucide bomber, or is dying and has a booby trap. You kick it to see if it is alive. if it is alive it moves and set off the booby trap, so that the body takes the majority of the blast.

If it is dead, you then know to proceed with caution and that it may indeed still be boody trapped, but is not lying in wait.

DustyMiller · 13 Feb 2006 at 08:58

Corporal's can indeed be section commanders, offiers do not neccasarily lead at that level. (sorry about the spelling)

Nana · 13 Feb 2006 at 09:28

Von Smallhausen said:
Sleepy, I wish I lived in your world.

Wake up !

British troops do not act on YOUR behalf, or else they would not be there now.

incorrect, our troopers act on behalf of every british citizen.

Question? does anyone here think that because Saddam's regime was brutal that gives us a license to be as bad?

cleanbluesky · 13 Feb 2006 at 10:20

Again, I wonder how people acknowledge the fact that war is about hate and murder yet simultaneously get shocked when such things are held in front of their face

Nana · 13 Feb 2006 at 10:23

cleanbluesky said:
Again, I wonder how people acknowledge the fact that war is about hate and murder yet simultaneously get shocked when such things are held in front of their face

well it isn't is it. This war is about WMD....... I don't hate Iraq or Iraqi's, in fact if any of our soldiers DO hate Iraqi's they shouldn't be on duty there.

dirtydog · 13 Feb 2006 at 10:26

cleanbluesky said:
Again, I wonder how people acknowledge the fact that war is about hate and murder yet simultaneously get shocked when such things are held in front of their face

We're not at war with the Iraqis remember.. we're there to save them and spread peace and democracy (tries not to laugh).

cleanbluesky · 13 Feb 2006 at 10:27

dirtydog said:
We're not at war with the Iraqis remember.. we're there to save them and spread peace and democracy (tries not to laugh).

Dont you have an answer to my question as to why you would find such footage such an event. The only part that shocked me was the sheer manic tone in the narrators voice... its rare to hear such mindless venom.

dirtydog · 13 Feb 2006 at 10:29

cleanbluesky said:
Dont you have an answer to my question as to why you would find such footage such an event. The only part that shocked me was the sheer manic tone in the narrators voice... its rare to hear such mindless venom.

I don't find it shocking in the sense that it's a total surprise, no. That doesn't mean I don't think it's disgusting and wrong - both morally wrong and woefully counter-productive.

cleanbluesky · 13 Feb 2006 at 10:35

dirtydog said:
I don't find it shocking in the sense that it's a total surprise, no. That doesn't mean I don't think it's disgusting and wrong - both morally wrong and woefully counter-productive.

Yes, getting caught has that effect...

Why are you so full of indignation DD, this is a nasty world I'm afraid...

Robert · 13 Feb 2006 at 10:38

To sum this up:

1) These people can be seen being escorted away and beaten (escorted from a riot). So they aren't exactly hot dog sellers from round the corner, are they?

2) Do you want our troops to go out with some pot and daisys trying to get on the better side of the weapon wiedling rioters?

3) IMO quashing violence with violence can actually work. A hard line stance needs to be drawn in order to prevent others from doing it. I've had experiences of this in my past (no violence was involved as it was a totally different situation, but still the idea of a hard stance was involved).

4) It's ok for us with slippers and pipes and high and mighty opinions out here but get into the **** of it in iraq and tell me you think the same. No one is saying these people were forced to sign up. They joined the army to do A JOB, this is part of that job and they are paid to carry out orders of which they are given. We don't know if orders where given to target possible ring leaders of the riot and **** the **** out of them.

5) Another thing to note is, is it only me who things this video is all well and good? It's uncanny that some guy happens to be AWAY from the action e.g. no where near the troops in-question spitting out spiele at a great speed..?