New and shocking footage of British troops torturing Iraqis...

i know nothing · 12 Feb 2006 at 23:59

JimmyEatWorms said:
It's not a case of two wrongs making a right. There is no "right" here just a lot of wrongs. If the British Army want to be seen as a positive presence in Iraq then they need to do everything in their power to weed out the elements that carry out acts like these. Do you honestly think that if this was not made public that anything would have hapened? I doubt it.

Oh lol!

The MOD HAVE ALREADY CONDEMNED IT, THEY ARE INVESTIGATING AS WE SPEAK.

Do you seriously think that if the News of the World handed a video to the MOD, the MOD would say to itself, "chuck it under the carpet boys and cover it up, the News of the World will let us get away with it"?

Give me a break!

JimmyEatWorms · 13 Feb 2006 at 00:04

i know nothing said:
Oh lol!

The MOD HAVE ALREADY CONDEMNED IT, THEY ARE INVESTIGATING AS WE SPEAK.

Only now they have been made aware of it.

Do you seriously think that if the News of the World handed a video to the MOD, the MOD would say to itself, "chuck it under the carpet boys and cover it up, the News of the World will let us get away with it"?

Give me a break!

Did I ever say that? I agree that the paper could have handed the tape over without running the story but we all know there is not a SINGLE paper in the country that would have done this. Don't think for one second I am defending them. I hate the tabloid media with a passion but in this instance they are doing exactly the same as any other paper or news agency would have done.

But to start attacking the paper does nothing but distract from the REAL issue.

Lt. Manlove · 13 Feb 2006 at 00:12

Well as a potential Royal Marine, I would have no problem getting the job done in a war zone. How else would we get the job done?

JimmyEatWorms · 13 Feb 2006 at 00:14

Lt. Manlove said:
Well as a potential Royal Marine, I would have no problem getting the job done in a war zone. How else would we get the job done?

What "job" were the guys in the video getting done?

i know nothing · 13 Feb 2006 at 00:19

JimmyEatWorms said:
Only now they have been made aware of it.

Did I ever say that? I agree that the paper could have handed the tape over without running the story but we all know there is not a SINGLE paper in the country that would have done this. Don't think for one second I am defending them. I hate the tabloid media with a passion but in this instance they are doing exactly the same as any other paper or news agency would have done.

But to start attacking the paper does nothing but distract from the REAL issue.

Which is what? Several issues I can think of that could be described as 'real' ranging from; justice for the victims, punishment of the soldiers, freedom of the press, the Iraqi reaction to what has happened, the safety of soldiers in Iraq etc etc.

What good has come out of the NOTW syndicating the release of this to other mainstream media outlets?

Lt. Manlove · 13 Feb 2006 at 00:21

JimmyEatWorms said:
What "job" were the guys in the video getting done?

Troops need to be feared to be effective and they are not allowed to shoot at them, how else can they pass on the message?

JimmyEatWorms · 13 Feb 2006 at 00:22

i know nothing said:
Which is what? Several issues I can think of that could be described as 'real' ranging from; justice for the victims, punishment of the soldiers, freedom of the press, the Iraqi reaction to what has happened, the safety of soldiers in Iraq etc etc.

The issue of our soldiers beating people which undermines the past efforts that have been made to portray the brits as the friendly face of the coallition.

What good has come out of the NOTW syndicating the release of this to other mainstream media outlets?

I don't think any good could ever come out of a situation like this.

JimmyEatWorms · 13 Feb 2006 at 00:24

Lt. Manlove said:
Troops need to be feared to be effective and they are not allowed to shoot at them, how else can they pass on the message?

Whatever happened to "hearts and minds"? You can't bully an entire country into submission. If you dump on them they are going to try and dump on you from an even greater height.

Stringy · 13 Feb 2006 at 00:30

Lt. Manlove said:
Troops need to be feared to be effective and they are not allowed to shoot at them, how else can they pass on the message?

With that as your mantra you're sure to go far in the Royal Marines.

My best friend passed out on friday (off to 40 Commando on tuesday), and he is disgusted by the actions of the soldiers, he would never advocate it for the reasons you gave.

Lt. Manlove · 13 Feb 2006 at 00:33

If they are trying to gain control of the country, there needs to be an excessive amount of discipline otherwise people will walk over our troops.

They are not bullying an entire country either. I saw about three civilians who were bricking it. You can bet no one wants to step out of line now. The media can help create a picture that the British are crazy which can work in our favor when trying fighting at war.

edit:

For all we know, the civilians may have had weapons and needed arresting.

Just so everybody knows, i've never been in a fight ever.

Stringy · 13 Feb 2006 at 00:38

Lt. Manlove said:
They are not bullying an entire country either. I saw about three civilians who were bricking it. You can bet no one wants to step out of line now. The media can help create a picture that the British are crazy which can work in our favor when trying fighting at war.

I'm sure quite a lot of people now want to step out of line even more as they won't look at the pictures and think "they got what they deserved", as what they deserved is time in prison. The extremists in Iraq will have a field day with this information, and use the beaten teenager as a martyrical pedestal upon which to fuel insurgents and fresh disgruntled populace.

You shouldn't try and force democracy onto a country, you should seduce them with it.

JimmyEatWorms · 13 Feb 2006 at 00:39

Lt. Manlove said:
If they are trying to gain control of the country, there needs to be an excessive amount of discipline otherwise people will walk over our troops.

And you think kicking 7 bells out of unarmed civillians is "discipline"?

They are not bullying an entire country either. I saw about three civilians who were bricking it.

But didn't you just say that they are trying to make people fearful of the british forces? Isn't that bullying?

You can bet no one wants to step out of line now. The media can help create a picture that the British are crazy which can work in our favor when trying fighting at war.

You honestly believe that? If anything it will make insurgent forces even more determined to get the occupying forces out.

divine` · 13 Feb 2006 at 00:39

Stringy said:
what they deserved is a few nights in the cells and then being released.

I can see that having a really good effect mate, good plan, the rioters will be positively quaking in their boots!

JimmyEatWorms said:
And you think kicking 7 bells out of unarmed civillians is "discipline"?

I think 'kicking 7 bells' is a tad exagerrated to be fair, watch it again, each guy gets hit no more than 4 or 5 times, and they aren't exactly full on pinned to the wall batons to the face are they? Hardly the beating of a lifetime.

Lt. Manlove · 13 Feb 2006 at 00:40

I guess I am losing an argument.

Stringy · 13 Feb 2006 at 00:42

divine_madness said:
I can see that having a really good effect mate, good plan, the rioters will be positively quaking in their boots

See edit.

Lt. Manlove · 13 Feb 2006 at 00:48

I suppose it is unfortunate for unprepared people to view the video, these are the type of people who wouldn't make it on the frontline. Maybe they think war, bombs, shootings, death etc are all pleasant activities.

JimmyEatWorms, as for your mate in the Royal Marines, what does he think about the Sprog Olympics? Does he think that is bullying aswell?

JimmyEatWorms · 13 Feb 2006 at 00:49

divine_madness said:
I think 'kicking 7 bells' is a tad exagerrated to be fair, watch it again, each guy gets hit no more than 4 or 5 times, and they aren't exactly full on pinned to the wall batons to the face are they? Hardly the beating of a lifetime.

They were getting headbutted by soldiers in riot gear and beaten with batons as well as being kicked and punched. I'd say it was a pretty solid beating. Certainly not something I'd enjoy going through.

Lt. Manlove · 13 Feb 2006 at 00:50

JimmyEatWorms said:
They were getting headbutted by soldiers in riot gear and beaten with batons as well as being kicked and punched. I'd say it was a pretty solid beating. Certainly not something I'd enjoy going through.

So you would make sure you would run away as fast as you can right?

edit:

Police can act like this too in riots. If they didn't they would appear soft and be put at a disadvantage.

Maybe the camera man gives you the impression it should be frowned upon by what he says. I know he sounds like a psychopath but the soldiers are just being professionals.

Stringy · 13 Feb 2006 at 00:52

Lt. Manlove said:
I suppose it is unfortunate for unprepared people to view the video, these are the type of people who wouldn't make it on the frontline. Maybe they think war, bombs, shootings, death etc are all pleasant activities.

Spoken by a hardened man of war, no less

JimmyEatWorms, as for your mate in the Royal Marines, what does he think about the Sprog Olympics? Does he think that is bullying aswell?

I assume that is aimed at me, and he views the kick to the head in that leaked 'sprog olympic' video as bullying, yes. Someone from his troop made a dvd of things they did when they weren't training including roll mat fights, playing pranks (sellotaping someone who was dropping outs gear to the ceiling) and taping people up and throwing them in ice cold baths because they'd be peeing in the showers (the guy then subsequently slipped upon leaving the bathtub, cracking his hip. He then had to be back-trooped, but didn't tell those in charge how he was really injured). He's not a 'wuss' but the man has morals.

JimmyEatWorms · 13 Feb 2006 at 00:57

Lt. Manlove said:
I suppose it is unfortunate for unprepared people to view the video, these are the type of people who wouldn't make it on the frontline. Maybe they think war, bombs, shootings, death etc are all pleasant activities.

Erm...and you are the expert how? Being a wannabe marine doesn't somehow make you mare of an expert on the reality of war. I've spent a fair bit of time being trained by regular army instructors in my past and have even spent some "familiarisation" time with the Gordon Highlanders before deciding that the military was not for me. I would never claim to be any more aware of the reality of war than any other man on the street given that I have never been there or done it (never mind got the t-shirt).

JimmyEatWorms, as for your mate in the Royal Marines, what does he think about the Sprog Olympics? Does he think that is bullying aswell?

I don't have a friend in the Marines. Several in (and out of) The Highlanders with a couple on active service over there right now. And what the hell is the sprog olympics?