New and shocking footage of British troops torturing Iraqis...

[Dingo]

Which is what I've been saying all along

Islamic Law says one thing, but those that rule by Islamic Law do no abide by it, ergo it is not the Law that is at fault.

The hipocrisy is in your affirmation that no beatings are permitted under Islamic Law yet the verse quoted claerly states that men may beat women....or do they arm the women first before beating them?.


And please don't tell me that the meaning is lost in translation

http://www.factsofisrael.com/blog/archives/000470-print.html
http://edition.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/europe/01/14/spain.cleric/index.html

The second link is about a Cleric who has written a book on how to beat women and leave no marks.......the Cleric for Christ's sake......wonder what advice his parishioners have received??


I fail to see why you in particular are so incensed by these beatings, unless I assume it's because they are fellow muslims, but the evidence points out that regardless of any "Occupying forces" the act of beating is prolific in these countries, and many more where migration is concerned, but I have not seen one post by yourself that condemns these actions. And these beatings are not in a war zone.

And if you believe in the book then by it's word you are able to beat your wife should you choose....because it's the Law of Allah.

Hippocritical all the way

 

[cleanbluesky]

Is it your opinion that he was an Islamist then? (I'm actually quite shocked at the whole blood thing - could it get even more sacraligous!)

Well, there is complex analysis here. It could be said that Sadam was Islamic in the same way that Hitler was a catholic. It gets lonely at the top, after all.

What I wished to do was use an ORly Owl to remind you that not all the bad guys are on either side, and no side can be faultless...

 

[i know nothing]

SNIP

It's more of a cultural thing, beatings are common place in the Arab world. Some of the clerics have tried to address the problem because it is so widespread, here's an example from one of them.

 

[@if ®afiq]

The hipocrisy is in your affirmation that no beatings are permitted under Islamic Law yet the verse quoted claerly states that men may beat women....or do they arm the women first before beating them?.

And please don't tell me that the meaning is lost in translation

Wow..you caught me out

First of all the comment about translations just shows your lack of understanding of languages. If you will not accept that translation cannot fully/accuratly reflect the original - then don't bother reading on.

For those that may be interest, this article is quite good at expaining the wrongly held belief that Islam allows wife beating.

The word "beating" is used in the verse, but it does not mean "physical abuse". The Prophet (p.b.u.h.) explained it "dharban ghayra mubarrih" which means "a light tap that leaves no mark". He further said that face must be avoided.

I'll quote some more quote's from the Qur'an about women and their status.

"And among His Signs is this, that He created for you mates from among yourselves, that ye may dwell in tranquility with them, and He has put love and mercy between your (hearts): verily in that are Signs for those who reflect." (Quran: Ar-Rum 21)

“Live with them on a footing of kindness and equity. If ye take a dislike to them it may be that ye dislike a thing, and Allah brings about through it a great deal of good.” (Quran: An-Nisaa 19)

"Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more strength than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore, the righteous women are devoutly obedient and guard in the husband's absence what Allah would have them to guard. As to those women on whose part you fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them (first), (next), refuse to share their beds, (and last) beat them (lightly); but if they return to obedience, seek not against them means (of annoyance); for Allah is most High and Great (above you all). If you fear a breach between them twain, appoint (two) arbiters, one from his family and the other from hers. If they wish for peace, Allah will cause their reconciliation; for Allah has full knowledge and is acquainted with all things." (Quran: An-Nisaa 34-35)

This article talks some more about domestic violence and the Islamic perspective of it.

Ofcourse it is clear to me that you have an agenda, but I hope that this is of help to others who wish to know more

http://www.factsofisrael.com/blog/archives/000470-print.html
http://edition.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/europe/01/14/spain.cleric/index.html

The second link is about a Cleric who has written a book on how to beat women and leave no marks.......the Cleric for Christ's sake......wonder what advice his parishioners have received??

That may be the case in Somalia - but does Islam allow it? Are there any quotes in the Qur'an that talk promote incest and sexual abuse? Are there any traditions from the Prophet on the permissability of these?

As for the second link, that does not prove anything. There are nutcases in all walks of life. In fact, you posting that link as if it is some sort of main tenet of Islam just shows how hard you are trying to defame Islam. Go to your local Islamic bookstore, both online and on the high street and tell me how many of these types of books you find.

I fail to see why you in particular are so incensed by these beatings, unless I assume it's because they are fellow muslims, but the evidence points out that regardless of any "Occupying forces" the act of beating is prolific in these countries, and many more where migration is concerned, but I have not seen one post by yourself that condemns these actions. And these beatings are not in a war zone.

Yes...I know they are "my brothers" and your are the "infidels"

Why should I now be incensed at beatings that are carried out in my name, for my defense? Just because I'm not white, it doesn't mean I can't comment.

As for the rest of the above quote, it's just too confusing to respond.

And if you believe in the book then by it's word you are able to beat your wife should you choose....because it's the Law of Allah.

Hippocritical all the way

See the above. (Also, I may be fat - but I'm no hippo!)

 

[@if ®afiq]

Well, there is complex analysis here. It could be said that Sadam was Islamic in the same way that Hitler was a catholic. It gets lonely at the top, after all.

What I wished to do was use an ORly Owl to remind you that not all the bad guys are on either side, and no side can be faultless...

I agree entirely.

 

[Overlag]

ever thought that these guys might have been nicking stuff? in saddams world he would have killed them. They should be glad they just got a beating

 

[Chronos-X]

Prelude to the NOTW film just shown on BBC - along with an interview with the soldier who recorded it/produced it (not sure which) - who gave the same film to the BBC 2 years ago but cut the tape just before the beatings

<him> doh

 

[neoboy]

I'll admit that I didn't really bother reading all 13 pages of replies but here is my view.

Both sides in the video had idiots. The youngster's seemed to lack any common sense whatsoever, "Hey let's throw stones and grenades at soldiers who are trained to kill and who are carrying rifles and riot shields and then see what happens!". The soldiers aren't policemen who are trained to uphold the law they are people who's main aspect of training is to eliminate the enemy in hostile conditions. In other words they are a bunch of mean mother******s and that's probably the way the army wants them to be (armed force that lacks aggression isn't a very effective one if you ask me). The discipline maybe there when soldiers are training over here in UK in camps with drill sargents shouting at them and military police at hand to deal with any minor outburst, but out there when you hand them guns and other firepower and nothing more than a handful of sergeants and officers to look over them, incidents do and will happen.

Now to make things clear I don't agree with what the soldiers did, beating them up wasn't the right course of action. However, I wouldn't be so sure of the youngster's innocence. If you read the story on news of the world, it says that prior to that charge the camp was also attacked by home made grenades and not just stones. Also in the video just before the charge you can hear a shout "black top, blue bottoms, get him" on a speaker so maybe the guys in some sort of a watchtower spotted who threw the grenade and that's why they were chased that far after all. Would everyone's reaction here be any different if that grenade took out 5 troops? Now, however, this tape will cause even more unrest in already not so pleased extremist muslim community who are willing to blow themselves up and take out as many as they can. I really hope this doesn't increase the number of attacks on our boys out there in Iraq.

 

[Chronos-X]

Video of prequel from BBC -

Video

 

[cleanbluesky]

what sort of a link is that?

 

[Chronos-X]

Copy and paste, its a microsoft media system protocol.

Edit: url'd manually

 

[Sleepy]

what sort of a link is that?

streamed wmv

You could try copying the link and loading direct into your player.

Edit: Server appears to be getting hammered

 

[Dingo]

Wow..you caught me out

First of all the comment about translations just shows your lack of understanding of languages.

Only aware of what your response would be....you cannot debate or argue against those written words so they get dumbded down....a light tap eh?

Ofcourse it is clear to me that you have an agenda, but I hope that this is of help to others who wish to know more

Afraid not, merely questioning your analysis of one situation, compared to the culture of beatings in many of these countries that by your silence you seem to condone.

As for the second link, that does not prove anything. There are nutcases in all walks of life. In fact, you posting that link as if it is some sort of main tenet of Islam just shows how hard you are trying to defame Islam.

Nope, don't need to, they do a pretty good job all by themselves.

Yes...I know they are "my brothers" and your are the "infidels"

Unfortunately your posts so far seem to have reflected this attitude.

Why should I now be incensed at beatings that are carried out in my name, for my defense? Just because I'm not white, it doesn't mean I can't comment.

No one has mentioned your skin colour in this thread as far as I am aware

 

[leaskovski]

I was speaking to an ex army sgnt today about this. He said this kind of stuff happens all the time except no-one is dumb enough to video it or take photos. One point that was made was the fact that most of the fresh intakes these days are real thick plonkers that have no clue what so ever, oh and that (not knowing if the footage was CCTV or someone actually videoing) the bloke behind the cam was probably gonna get a beating of his life.

I guess that's the army way!

 

[Hedge]

in my opinion i dont see a big problem. if someone was acting like a moron in the street over here they would deserve a good kicking. and most people would agree. In a hostile environment when people are trying to control an area... idiots throwing rocks etc deserve a good slap.

 

[VIRII]

aif rafiq it is pretty simple.
On the one hand you feel that stoning gay people to death is perfectly ok and on the other you complain about these four lads getting bashed up as though it was the worst crime ever committed.

Not one have I ever heard you condemn the actions of the Taliban, not once, not ever. The cruelty that these people dished out to the Afghans is incredible, they were very sick men indeed. Yet you brush it off, it isn't something you will acknowledge because ...... they are muslims.

You whine about the occupation of Iraq and say let the Iraqi people free themselves.
Just how are they going to do that then? They can't do it alone as you've already stated. So on the one hand you want them to do it alone and on the other you complain that the US did not help them enough in GW1. Decide, which is it to be?

What I see from your posts is that if a Muslim commits an act of violence or gives a beating or tortures another then you either pretend it isn't happening, refuse to comment or brush it off with "well at least the Taliban brought stability".
Yeah so did Saddam, but at what price? Islam by the gun.

 

[Stolly]

Pakistani police officer giving a thrashing to a student during a rally to condemn the publication of cartoons depicting Islamic Prophet Muhammad, Monday, Feb 13, 2006 in Peshawar, Pakistan. (AP Photo/Mohammad Zubair)

Where is the outrage ?

 

[Chronos-X]

Christ Virii you really have got it in for asif.. its gotten too far now :S

 

[Stolly]

Not one have I ever heard you condemn the actions of the Taliban, not once, not ever. The cruelty that these people dished out to the Afghans is incredible, they were very sick men indeed. Yet you brush it off, it isn't something you will acknowledge because ...... they are muslims.
.

America went into Afghanistan to build a pipeline from Turkmenistan to Pakistan, thats they they supported OBL, and thats why they conspired to bring about the fall of the USSR. Its all part of a 20+ year masterplan.

Nothing to do with the cruelty of the Taliban.

 

[andi]

I think what they did was wrong. But then again. If you keep prodding a dog, don't be surprised if it turns round and bites your arm off.

I wonder what would have happened if they'd thrown stones at soldiers in Iraq before the war. I have a feeling they may have been dragged into that compound and never seen again until someone digs them out of a mass grave...