New and shocking footage of British troops torturing Iraqis...

taliesyn · 14 Feb 2006 at 12:17

@if ®afiq said:
I believe it is a grave sin and as such requires a harsh punishment.

Re-read what I said. It is not about consenting adults. Those who are outside of wedlock getting flogged. Those who are in wedlock (i.e married to a women) and comit(sp?) a homosexual act pay the ultimate price.

So what you're saying is that it would have been OK if the troops had stoned or flogged them as these are acceptable punishments according to islam?

I don't condone what the troops did, but I can perhaps understand it given the situation at the time.

Beheadings are carried out in Saudi Arabia too aren't they? Is that also acceptable? What if the troops had beheaded them?

You certainly appear to have a twisted belief system.

HEADRAT · 14 Feb 2006 at 12:18

@if ®afiq said:
but for those inside of marriage it is to be stoned.
To me it sounds like a harsh but necessary punishment

Sorry most of the rest of the world has managed to progress in the last 2000 years and we don't consider such activities civilised.

If that is your religion then fine but I hate it (my right as an individual in a free country), thankfully I was born in a civilised country where I'm allowed to have such views.

HEADRAT

cleanbluesky · 14 Feb 2006 at 12:19

Is @if's belief that homosexaulity is worth stoning any different from our ideas of justice?

Perhaps the only difference is that our punishments are weaker and that we have different crimes.

Oh, and guys - everyone seems to be criticising @if for what he has said, but remember that it takes a lot to admit things like that when you know you are going to get a bad reception I don't think we all need to lecture him on just how much we condemn his viewpoint

taliesyn · 14 Feb 2006 at 12:22

cleanbluesky said:
Is @if's belief that homosexaulity is worth stoning any different from our ideas of justice?

Perhaps the only difference is that our punishments are weaker and that we have different crimes.

I think it is to be honest.

It's not that our punishments are weaker I don't think (although of course they certainly are), but the rigidity and 'blind faithedness' of the way that supposed crimes against islam are punished. You've done this, so you must be stoned, or beheaded or whatever. There is no defence.

Salman Rushdie wrote a book, and therefore must be killed. Where's the sense in that?

dirtydog · 14 Feb 2006 at 12:25

cleanbluesky said:
Is @if's belief that homosexaulity is worth stoning any different from our ideas of justice?

Perhaps the only difference is that our punishments are weaker and that we have different crimes.

Oh, and guys - everyone seems to be criticising @if for what he has said, but remember that it takes a lot to admit things like that when you know you are going to get a bad reception I don't think we all need to lecture him on just how much we condemn his viewpoint

I think people who aren't familiar with his views (like SC posters) are probably just stunned and amazed that someone has just calmly advocated brutally murdering people for being gay. If someone posts such a thing what do they think the reaction will be? And as for us being the same as him, apart from having different crimes and punishments - do you post things that you actually think make sense or just to be contrary for the sake of it?

HEADRAT · 14 Feb 2006 at 12:26

cleanbluesky said:
I don't think we all need to lecture him on just how much we condemn his viewpoint

No I think we do, just to show how repugnant normal people find this kind of putrid dogma, if Muslim's are allowed to get in a hissy fit over a cartoon then I feel I'm more than justified to stand up and show how strongly I feel.

If I lived in a strictly Muslim country I probably wouldn't be allowed express my feeling on how "wrong" I feel some of these teachings are, I would probably be beheaded or something equally as barbaric. Luckily I live in a free western democracy and I can let @if's how his religious beliefs make my skin crawl.

HEADRAT

Vonhelmet · 14 Feb 2006 at 12:29

@if ®afiq said:
Errr...no quite. I don't see how God could be a victim of anything. He is above all things.

That's a fair point, but to say that he is above all things doesn't excuse him from being offended by our actions. If he didn't disapprove of sin, it would be fairly unnecessary and indeed arbitrary for him to have any laws governing our behaviour.

I'm pretty sure some of this should be covered in texts we both agree on. The flood and Noah springs to mind, with God saying that the sin of man aggrieves him and he wants to destroy everyone.

Perhaps it's just my choice of words. I agree he can't be a victim as such, but I think what we are both saying is that if God has decreed that something is wrong, then we don't really have a case for saying it's OK on the basis that it seems OK to us.

HEADRAT · 14 Feb 2006 at 12:37

@if ®afiq said:
He is above all things.

Yeah this is what I love about religion, if you say that God is above all things and those follows feel they are doing "God's will" you basically give them cart blance to do what they hell they want!! Fundamentalists in all religions feel that they are doing "God's will" and following the "true path" due to their interpretations of the religion in question.

HEADRAT

dirtydog · 14 Feb 2006 at 12:37

vonhelmet said:
I think what we are both saying is that if God has decreed that something is wrong, then we don't really have a case for saying it's OK on the basis that it seems OK to us.

lol you are just as bad as each other in my book

You do what you think your god wants rather than think for yourself and do what you personally believe is right.

Sigg · 14 Feb 2006 at 12:40

taliesyn said:
Beheadings are carried out in Saudi Arabia too aren't they?

Only if you haven't been very bad. Al-had is one of their less pleasant punishments: partial beheading and crucifixion.

HEADRAT · 14 Feb 2006 at 12:42

dirtydog said:
You do what you think your god wants rather than think for yourself and do what you personally believe is right.

Maybe they feel it is right that all homosexuals suffer this fate, probably followed by those that don't beleive as they do (as they offend God), sooner or later it all ends up in a blood bath in the name of God.

Ah I love religion (NOT)!

HEADRAT

Vonhelmet · 14 Feb 2006 at 12:43

dirtydog said:
lol you are just as bad as each other in my book You do what you think your god wants rather than think for yourself and do what you personally believe is right.

In reality you know that people can't simply think for themselves and do what they personally believe is right. It doesn't work across the board, as people believe it's right to murder people or molest children. There has to be a higher authority, be it government or God.

dirtydog · 14 Feb 2006 at 12:48

vonhelmet said:
In reality you know that people can't simply think for themselves and do what they personally believe is right. It doesn't work across the board, as people believe it's right to murder people or molest children. There has to be a higher authority, be it government or God.

The higher authority I adhere to is the law, which was written by fellow men and women - not some imaginary god. Parliament has the power to change the law as well. Personally I don't murder people etc because I find it wrong - and I don't need to be religious to think that.

HEADRAT · 14 Feb 2006 at 12:48

Govern people with sensible laws created out of 1000's of years of civilisation not out of anchient texts with little or no relevervance to those who aren't religious. The precepts of "though shalt not kill" etc are important ones but these have been "mans law" since before our current religions.

HEADRAT

Vonhelmet · 14 Feb 2006 at 12:51

My point wasn't about whether you should choose government or God. It was that it's not really viable for everyone to simply "think for themselves and do what they personally believe is right." as I was informed I should in place of following God.

dirtydog · 14 Feb 2006 at 12:56

vonhelmet said:
My point wasn't about whether you should choose government or God. It was that it's not really viable for everyone to simply "think for themselves and do what they personally believe is right." as I was informed I should in place of following God.

Why do you care what your god thinks? Do you think he is watching and taking note of what you do, to see whether you are a good boy?

Chasser · 14 Feb 2006 at 12:58

Lt. Manlove said:
Kick the **** out of anyone if they threw stones at me

You seriously think that you will make the grade as a Royal Marine with an attitude like that?

HEADRAT · 14 Feb 2006 at 13:01

Chasser said:
You seriously think that you will make the grade as a Royal Marine with an attitude like that?

I would say with training he sounds like an ideal candidate

HEADRAT

Vonhelmet · 14 Feb 2006 at 13:01

dirtydog said:
Why do you care what your god thinks? Do you think he is watching and taking note of what you do, to see whether you are a good boy?

Uh... yes.

cleanbluesky · 14 Feb 2006 at 13:10

I am trying hard to think of something consentual that we punish people for en masse...

I don't think consentual paedophilia between teens and adults is too common, that would get a punihsment but certainly not stoning.

Is pain worse or 'moraly wrong' compared to jail time? (as far as flogging is concerned, stoning would likely be a death sentance)