NHS=Negligent Health Service

[Chuk_Chuk]

brexit too - I did present my remainer priority pass when I attended A&E

Your post made me curious, there are 301,000 nurses in Englang.

Record number of NHS doctors and nurses in England

Provisional figures show that as of January 2021, there are a total of 123,813 doctors and 301,491 nurses working in the NHS.

www.gov.uk

So those 5000, account for just under 2% of the nurses in Englang.

Now we don't know where these nurses work or the breakdown through out the NHS. So while brexit didn't help its most likely not the issue here.

 

[jpaul]

An article that elaborates on nurse shortage

Is the NHS on track to recruit 50,000 more nurses?

Will the target of 50,000 more nurses in the NHS by March 2024 be enough to meet the level of demand? Jonathon Holmes and David Maguire look at the story behind the data.

www.kingsfund.org.uk

40K vacancies they're not finding recruits on home turf (or abroad ... if covid hasn't tied them up) so 200K nurses do the jobs of 240K,
if we lost 5K at referendum, there must be a few K a year we are not subsequently employing caused by brexit

lack of care workers+nursing home capacity causing bed-blocking in hospitals and tieing up expensive nhs resources another factor

 

[cheesefest]

Your post made me curious, there are 301,000 nurses in Englang.

Record number of NHS doctors and nurses in England

Provisional figures show that as of January 2021, there are a total of 123,813 doctors and 301,491 nurses working in the NHS.

www.gov.uk

So those 5000, account for just under 2% of the nurses in Englang.

Now we don't know where these nurses work or the breakdown through out the NHS. So while brexit didn't help its most likely not the issue here.

I know two moved from NHS to private

 

[Goodie]

An article that elaborates on nurse shortage

Is the NHS on track to recruit 50,000 more nurses?

Will the target of 50,000 more nurses in the NHS by March 2024 be enough to meet the level of demand? Jonathon Holmes and David Maguire look at the story behind the data.

www.kingsfund.org.uk

40K vacancies they're not finding recruits on home turf (or abroad ... if covid hasn't tied them up) so 200K nurses do the jobs of 240K,
if we lost 5K at referendum, there must be a few K a year we are not subsequently employing caused by brexit

lack of care workers+nursing home capacity causing bed-blocking in hospitals and tieing up expensive nhs resources another factor

Getting new nurses into the nhs is never going to be a home grown solution due the removing of funding/bursary a few years back. Who in their right mind would want to burden themselves with student debt to take on an underpaid under-appreciated nursing post…

 

[Vidar]

This is what happened with British Rail though as my understanding goes. It was chronically underfunded for years, reached breaking point where service users had enough and then privatisation happened in full. It's bloody disgusting.

 

[Scougar]

My folks are over from UK at present, and were telling me how bad the NHS service and GP service has become. Apparently most GPs are part time now from government causing an issue. Difficult getting appointments. Years long waits for operations etc.

 

[Devilman]

My folks are over from UK at present, and were telling me how bad the NHS service and GP service has become. Apparently most GPs are part time now from government causing an issue. Difficult getting appointments. Years long waits for operations etc.

Utter nonsense... GP's are far from "part time"... Also, I can get in to see my GP within a week, or even the same day if I call early enough in the morning. People really need to stop tarring all GP's with the same broad brush, dipped in the finest "subjective personal experience" lead-based paint.
Wait times for operations have nothing to do with the GP's at all.. Throw your ire at the NHS and those running it / (under)funding it.

 

[Scougar]

Utter nonsense... GP's are far from "part time"... Also, I can get in to see my GP within a week, or even the same day if I call early enough in the morning. People really need to stop tarring all GP's with the same broad brush, dipped in the finest "subjective personal experience" lead-based paint.
Wait times for operations have nothing to do with the GP's at all.. Throw your ire at the NHS and those running it / (under)funding it.

Utter nonsense huh? Every GP in the area has gone part time. Weeks for appointments. My Dad has been waiting 2 years to have a tendon reattached. My Mother almost died from being brushed off for weeks by her local place. Long story short after a phone doctor also brushed her off, my Dad took her too ER, my mother collapsed and had to spend time in hospital.

I never said GPs have anything to do with appointments. Good lord, no need for the aggression. I have routinely and regularly defended the NHS in all capacities, so to hear my parents tell.me some things that are going on surprised me. They had quite a few stories from their church of poor treatment and years long wait times for surgery. One is now upto 4 years.

And yes, I am aware of the sabotage by the gov, as alluded to in my original post. (It's classic gov move, of make something so underfunded and intentionally inefficient, they can then argue privatisation).

You literally claimed my subjective experience and then defended it with your own subjective experience. I mean.. really?

 

[Rroff]

Utter nonsense... GP's are far from "part time"... Also, I can get in to see my GP within a week, or even the same day if I call early enough in the morning. People really need to stop tarring all GP's with the same broad brush, dipped in the finest "subjective personal experience" lead-based paint.
Wait times for operations have nothing to do with the GP's at all.. Throw your ire at the NHS and those running it / (under)funding it.

Not utter nonsense - for most of 2022 my GP has been sending out a monthly text message that due to staff sickness and other factors their clinical team is extremely short staffed and they are booking emergency appointments only and people will be prioritised by need. Their main GP apparently is signed off long term sick after getting COVID and they only have 2 part time GPs who also cover other surgeries, I'm not sure of the exact roles but most people I know who've been lately have been seen by someone in a doctor support/associate role or a nurse who then talks to a doctor - I'm not sure some of it is even legal (though I'm relying on 3rd party accounts for that).

My mum had to jump through hoops recently with 2-3 telephone appointments before getting a slot in another surgery 20 miles away (there was a closer option but it was an additional 2 weeks wait).

Only this month I've not had that message but no idea what the current situation is.

 

[Devilman]

Not utter nonsense - for most of 2022 my GP has been sending out a monthly text message that due to staff sickness and other factors their clinical team is extremely short staffed and they are booking emergency appointments only and people will be prioritised by need. Their main GP apparently is signed off long term sick after getting COVID and they only have 2 part time GPs who also cover other surgeries, I'm not sure of the exact roles but most people I know who've been lately have been seen by someone in a doctor support/associate role or a nurse who then talks to a doctor - I'm not sure some of it is even legal (though I'm relying on 3rd party accounts for that).

My mum had to jump through hoops recently with 2-3 telephone appointments before getting a slot in another surgery 20 miles away (there was a closer option but it was an additional 2 weeks wait).

Only this month I've not had that message but no idea what the current situation is.

And what part of "staff sickness" equate to "part time".

To claim they are "part time" is clearly a slight and an attempt to compare them to those who are actually in part-time work.
It is to give the notion that they choose to only work a handful of hours a week and not the reality that they are incredibly overworked, underfunded and suffering sickness and burnout after the last 2 years of Covid issues.
It is not remotely fair or honest to claim that GP's are "part-time". It's the constant whining that they are "not working hard enough" and ****ing on them from on-high that makes me wonder why ANYONE would want to become a GP these days. People are so profoundly selfish and self-centered over what is a frankly remarkable free-at-use service.
Just like the NHS as a whole, if it's under-staffed with long-wait times and poor service due to ****-poor investment in the service, maybe people should stop voting in charlatans that fail to fund the system properly and funnel money into their (and their mates) pockets with dodgy contracts?

But then, that would require people actually taking some personal responsibility and accepting part of the blame for the ****-show we're now in and 1 thing that is very clear is that those who have (and still do) support such governments are utterly unwilling to accept the blame for the results of their actions.

 

[Devilman]

Utter nonsense huh? Every GP in the area has gone part time.

Funny, as the statement I picked you up on was this....

My folks are over from UK at present, and were telling me how bad the NHS service and GP service has become. Apparently most GPs are part time now from government causing an issue. Difficult getting appointments. Years long waits for operations etc.

Now, I dunno about other people, but to me most implies the majority of ALL of them, not just those "in your area". This is another example of people using their limited subjective personal experience and painting a broad stroke with a very wide brush across all GPs.

My Dad has been waiting 2 years to have a tendon reattached.

This is a surgical procedure, it has nothing to do with your GP. It is not the remit of the GP to manage and schedule surgical procedures.

I never said GPs have anything to do with appointments. Good lord, no need for the aggression.

Funny, because in a response to a comment about GP's, you insisted on mentioning your fathers surgery. It's almost as if you're trying to conflate the two, while claiming the opposite. Also, there is was no aggression in my message at all, so not sure what you're going about there

You literally claimed my subjective experience and then defended it with your own subjective experience. I mean.. really?

No, What I was attempting to do was to point out that your subjective experience does not serve as evidence to then claim "all GP's are doing <this>" and to demonstrate that I gave a subjective personal experience of my own which directly counters yours. Which precisely goes to demonstrate why limited, subjective personal experience is NOT a good indicator of the average or the whole and should not be used to then go and tar an entire group of (relatively unthanked) hard working people who try to keep us all alive.

And yes, I am aware of the sabotage by the gov, as alluded to in my original post. (It's classic gov move, of make something so underfunded and intentionally inefficient, they can then argue privatisation).

Then surely that should be the target of your irritation and frustration surely? Not blaming the GPs...

 

[Rroff]

And what part of "staff sickness" equate to "part time".

To claim they are "part time" is clearly a slight and an attempt to compare them to those who are actually in part-time work.
It is to give the notion that they choose to only work a handful of hours a week and not the reality that they are incredibly overworked, underfunded and suffering sickness and burnout after the last 2 years of Covid issues.
It is not remotely fair or honest to claim that GP's are "part-time". It's the constant whining that they are "not working hard enough" and ****ing on them from on-high that makes me wonder why ANYONE would want to become a GP these days. People are so profoundly selfish and self-centered over what is a frankly remarkable free-at-use service.
Just like the NHS as a whole, if it's under-staffed with long-wait times and poor service due to ****-poor investment in the service, maybe people should stop voting in charlatans that fail to fund the system properly and funnel money into their (and their mates) pockets with dodgy contracts?

But then, that would require people actually taking some personal responsibility and accepting part of the blame for the ****-show we're now in and 1 thing that is very clear is that those who have (and still do) support such governments are utterly unwilling to accept the blame for the results of their actions.

Regardless of the reasoning, and I don't think Scougar was being that specific, it is the reality becoming common for many of the public regardless of what is behind it. My old surgery before moving has around 70 mostly 1 star reviews because of all these issues regardless of why they've come about and an increasing number of GPs are only working part time.

 

[Devilman]

Regardless of the reasoning, and I don't think Scougar was being that specific, it is the reality becoming common for many of the public regardless of what is behind it. My old surgery before moving has around 70 mostly 1 star reviews because of all these issues regardless of why they've come about and an increasing number of GPs are only working part time.

"Regardless of the reasoning" I'm sorry but that really does not wash.

It is not the GP's fault. it's not the nurses fault, it's not the surgeons fault. it's not the receptionists or porters fault either. The NHS as a service has been utterly disrespected and stripped to the bone by a vulture-like government pecking at a carcass.

To say "regardless of what is behind it" is just totally dismissive of the root cause of the problem, it's almost dismissive in a "hand-waving" kind of way and it's laying blame in entirely the wrong place(s). It's the same as how the older generation like to claim young people these days "just don't try hard enough" while totally dismissing the massive difference in cost of living and housing compared to years ago.

Everyone is screaming about symptoms, NOBODY is addressing the disease.

People are effectively shooting the delivery guy for getting a **** product.

 

[Rroff]

"Regardless of the reasoning" I'm sorry but that really does not wash.

It is not the GP's fault. it's not the nurses fault, it's not the surgeons fault. it's not the receptionists or porters fault either. The NHS as a service has been utterly disrespected and stripped to the bone by a vulture-like government pecking at a carcass.

To say "regardless of what is behind it" is just totally dismissive of the root cause of the problem, it's almost dismissive in a "hand-waving" kind of way and it's laying blame in entirely the wrong place(s). It's the same as how the older generation like to claim young people these days "just don't try hard enough" while totally dismissing the massive difference in cost of living and housing compared to years ago.

Everyone is screaming about symptoms, NOBODY is addressing the disease.

People are effectively shooting the delivery guy for getting a **** product.

I'm not being dismissive - only saying that regardless of the reasons what the average member of the public is increasingly experiencing really isn't that far from the kind of stuff Scougar was talking about.

You seem to be taking it rather personally and reading specific intent in things people have posted as a fairly broad point.

 

[Devilman]

I'm not being dismissive - only saying that regardless of the reasons what the average member of the public is increasingly experiencing really isn't that far the kind of stuff Scougar was talking about.

You seem to be taking it rather personally and reading specific intent in things people have posted as a fairly broad point.

Because many of those same people who are experiencing things similar to what Scougar is talking about are the ones who will willingly regurgitate whatever crap the Daily Mail and the like will wheel out, blaming the GPs, the Nurses and anyone else they can for the shortcomings of the NHS - which are almost entirely driven by the chronic under-funding and wasting of NHS money that has been the case for far too long.

If people are unwilling to engage in the truth and find it easier to simply make broad strokes about how GPs are all working part-time and how it's all a shambles, it just leads to the wrong people shouldering the blame for the current state of the system.

It's this very kind of mentality that leads to people assaulting staff (verbally or physically) in GP surgeries and A&E. Because people end up directing all their pent up frustration and annoyance they have with the poor state of the service at the front-line staff, Because people have been lapping up Daily-Mail like headlines blaming GP's or nurses asking for a payrise that might actually have a chance of matching inflation (at any time, not just now when inflation is spiking) or simply finding it "intellectually easier / convenient" to just blame the GPs / Nurses.

This is what I have an issue with. I have several close friends who work in the medical services and the amount of crap they have to deal with from people for things which are entirely beyond their control or influence is just disgusting.

*edit* Even if the individuals are not rabid Daily-Mail fans, it's a pretty common occurrence for a lot of the MSM in this country to regurgitate whatever "blame-game" nonsense Westminster likes to put out when these issues start to raise their ugly head... Just look at the way they're reacting to the Rail Unions

 

[Rroff]

Because many of those same people who are experiencing things similar to what Scougar is talking about are the ones who will willingly regurgitate whatever crap the Daily Mail and the like will wheel out, blaming the GPs, the Nurses and anyone else they can for the shortcomings of the NHS - which are almost entirely driven by the chronic under-funding and wasting of NHS money that has been the case for far too long.

If people are unwilling to engage in the truth and find it easier to simply make broad strokes about how GPs are all working part-time and how it's all a shambles, it just leads to the wrong people shouldering the blame for the current state of the system.

It's this very kind of mentality that leads to people assaulting staff (verbally or physically) in GP surgeries and A&E. Because people end up directing all their pent up frustration and annoyance they have with the poor state of the service at the front-line staff, Because people have been lapping up Daily-Mail like headlines blaming GP's or nurses asking for a payrise that might actually have a chance of matching inflation (at any time, not just now when inflation is spiking) or simply finding it "intellectually easier / convenient" to just blame the GPs / Nurses.

This is what I have an issue with. I have several close friends who work in the medical services and the amount of crap they have to deal with from people for things which are entirely beyond their control or influence is just disgusting.

*edit* Even if the individuals are not rabid Daily-Mail fans, it's a pretty common occurrence for a lot of the MSM in this country to regurgitate whatever "blame-game" nonsense Westminster likes to put out when these issues start to raise their ugly head... Just look at the way they're reacting to the Rail Unions

Regardless the reality is my 94 year old grandad had to lie on the floor for 10 hours with a broken hip (although once he made it into hospital they did treat him very quickly), my local GP currently has no full time GP and if you aren't actually dying you can't get an appointment for trying and that isn't an unusual story. What Scougar said isn't utter nonsense whatever the attribution for those problems are.

 

[chroniclard]

Do these anecdotes make any difference to who is to blame for the deteriorating NHS? Nope, 100% the government.

 

[SexyGreyFox]

@Devilman
My own GP Surgery has GPs who are part time, if I want to see certain GPs they are there on certain days and so on.
I don't regurgitate Daily Mail nonsense, I spend all day helping to defend Clinicians who have been accused of Negligence, I know all the ins & outs of our Trust and will be heading there at 8am.
This also means I get to read the patients journey from GP into the hospital and it's the same story for most and then we have to send them back to the GPs with their claims because it's not us.

 

[Dis86]

Pointed out already that my gp is part time and only does Mondays and Fridays.
The guy a couple of doors up from me only does 1 day a week and as I've already said as well complained when they asked him to do more days to help out when covid was in full swing.

 

[heeeed]

I think the talk of part time GPs doesn't really understand what hours we do either. Fulltime has traditionally been considered 8 clinical sessions, which means 4 days of seeing patients. The problem we have these days is that the hours get longer as a combination of increased workload in general and the increased amount of extended hours access we have to provide. My average day is now 11-12 hours, so my "working week" is 44-48 hours. I'll also do 1:8 saturday mornings from 8-1 o'clock. I will generally remote in from home on my midweek "day off" for about 2 hours to try and do admin tasks and some of the work as a partner. These are long hours and I know I can't maintain this for all of my career anymore. If I had the financial position and the ability to employ someone else to do the work of me dropping sessions I'd drop them immediately, but I can't for both reasons.

We see increasing numbers of patients, we deal with increasing amounts of admin and liaising with secondary care to try deal with complex things that aren't able to be seen in a timely fashion in hospital these days. Doing medicine that we have less experience of with the support as best they can provide it from hospital doctors is difficult. Working out of your comfort zone all the time, and making serious important life changing decisions is very stressful and takes time.

Some people might consider my working as part time if I'm not in building 5 days per week. I work over 2 different surgeries throughout the week, and therefore people label me as part time (I've had people say this to me), because they know they cant see me on some days and assume I'm sitting with my feet up and not working 2 miles down the road. I have other partners and salaried docs who might do 6 sessions. well 6 sessions will be 33-36 hours, and the same 1:8 saturday mornings that I do, they will also do some remote work on "days off". Part time really isn't a fair descriptor for what they are doing.

The system is in crisis and morale is below rock bottom these days and yet still the beatings in the press continue as though we are lazy workshy professionals sucking from the teet of the tax payer. It simply isn't fair