Norwegian rape victim sentenced to 1 year and 4 months of prison in Dubai for sex outside of marriag

Xordium said:
How many Western people have been jailed then in the Middle East after being raped? Common is it - really?
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Does it matter more to you that she was a Western girl and not a Saudi? I'm in this thread because a girl was raped and then imprisoned for it because their Sky Pixie said so.

That thread has been done to death. This though is a whole new ball game.
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Personally I never get tired of talking about Stone Age cultures that like to think of themselves as respectful towards women because their Sky Pixie said so, but secretly and consistently find ways to subject them to abuse and degradation. I also absolutely love that they take the moral high ground whilst doing this. It never gets old for me, Muslim threads are awesome.
 
bitslice said:
Does it matter more to you that she was a Western girl and not a Saudi? I'm in this thread because a girl was raped and then imprisoned for it because their Sky Pixie said so.


Personally I never get tired of talking about Stone Age cultures that like to think of themselves as respectful towards women because their Sky Pixie said so, but secretly and consistently find ways to subject them to abuse and degradation. I also absolutely love that they take the moral high ground whilst doing this. It never gets old for me, Muslim threads are awesome.
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Definitely awesome, especially when people who have no knowledge of Islam participate.

I've been to Dubai and wasn't really impressed. For those that think Dubai is the model Islamic country then they really don't know about Islam. In any case, in this particular case the woman was sentenced for having sex outside marriage and drinking. Was it proven that she was actually raped? Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't trust the Dubai police or Government, but there's also a possibility that she wasn't raped but just had consensual sex and later regretted it.

there's an interesting piece of work here http://www.academia.edu/2083424/Competing_Approaches_to_Rape_in_Islamic_Law_forthcoming_ about the different approaches to how rape is dealt with by various schools within Islam in case anyone is actually interested in Islamic law...
 
Raz said:
Definitely awesome, especially when people who have no knowledge of Islam participate.
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Yep, I have absolutely no knowledge of Islam participate, nor does anyone else on planet Earth.
For those that think Dubai is the model Islamic country
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I think we all understand that they are running the place like an Islamist Disneyland with guns, and this is entirely different from all the other Islamist Disneylands in the Middle East, like Iran.


but there's also a possibility that she wasn't raped but just had consensual sex and later regretted it.
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Uh huh, so in a muslim country with all the other women unavailable and a corrupt police force, what are the chances of a western woman being raped as opposed to going to the police with a fairy story?

the different approaches to how rape is dealt with by various schools within Islam
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Isn't all that irrelevant in the case of Saudis as they do what they want to anyway? At least they stop pretending to be Muslim when they come to London.

Interesting document, I gather one belief is that a free woman's sexuality can be bought (as in marriage), so if she is raped she should be given money for her 'loss', so really rape is treated as a property crime.
The other belief required Sky Pixie approval, which somewhat conveniently is defined by men again, and it's secondary whether the girl resisted or not.
That means rape within marriage is legal under Islam?

Woman are stuffed under Islam, they have to hide themselves away because a bare ankle might tempt another muslim, if they get raped outside marriage it's their fault and if they get raped within marriage it's still their fault.
I prefer the Western concept that not raping women is actually seen as a sign of moral integrity, instead of blaming the woman for being a **** and that you couldn't help yourself.

We've discovered all this 500 years ago with Christianity, that religion makes for reasonable moral guidance, but if allowed absolute power then it makes really stupid, conflicting and misogynist laws.
 
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bitslice said:
Does it matter more to you that she was a Western girl and not a Saudi? I'm in this thread because a girl was raped and then imprisoned for it because their Sky Pixie said so.
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No, it does not matter from for the woman. No, it does not matter more from a "wrong" point of view. It does however matter more from a foreign policy point of view for the UAE and how they are perceived. This was a non-Muslim woman. Therefore, this is a strong judgement for them.

We have only just recently had the UAE make changes to their judicial process. Now we have this as a result of that.

Therefore, this is a significant event - it is a pandering from what is generally a liberal regime towards a more hardlined approach most likely to appease a population that is changing its views as is the whole regions.

Now if you don't think that's important or relevant then I am sorry but actually it is. It makes this case far more than just this case and something that is indicative of a growing trend across the whole region. The tightening and stricter interpretations of laws indicates the regime in the UAE will appease the crowds in this regard.


Oh and @ haggisman if you mean me by your comment then have the balls to say so. I would hardly care. However, if you think my comments are controversial then say so at the time and actually challenge them. If you want start a thread called all the Stupid **** said by Xordium and actually challenge the posts. Because I think what you will find is most of the stuff people are attributing to me I have not said if they actually bothered to read my posts. Read what I write not the reaction ... and yes I do hold some strong views but I am not aware of a single one that would break a basic ethics test. If you think otherwise then start the thread - list them all and see how it goes.
 
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In this instance they have also arrested and sentenced the alleged male attacker for the same crime - sex before marriage and drinking alcohol. So there is some equality there! :p

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-23381448

Ms Dalelv says she had been on a night out with colleagues on 6 March when the rape took place.

She reported it to the police, who proceeded to confiscate her passport and seize her money. She was charged four days later on three counts, including having sex outside marriage.

Her alleged attacker, she said, received a 13-month sentence for extra-marital sex and alcohol consumption.

The Norwegian government had secured Ms Dalelv's conditional release so, since being charged, she has been living under the protection of the Norwegian Seamans' Centre in Dubai.

But she told Norway's NRK News that following her sentencing on Tuesday she was now officially wanted by the Dubai authorities.

"I should have been imprisoned since Tuesday," she said. "But I have been told they are not searching for me."
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bitslice said:
Yep, I have absolutely no knowledge of Islam
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Should have just left it there.

bitslice said:
Woman are stuffed under Islam, they have to hide themselves away because a bare ankle might tempt another muslim, if they get raped outside marriage it's their fault and if they get raped within marriage it's still their fault.
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You'd have to prove through Islamic sources that women were expected to cover up purely because "ankles might tempt another muslim".

I prefer the Western concept that not raping women is actually seen as a sign of moral integrity, instead of blaming the woman for being a **** and that you couldn't help yourself.
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Interesting way of putting it. Is it just the West that sees it this way, or is Islam = Eastern?
 
Though I'm glad, this hasn't changed anything. They've done this to avoid international pressure.

Next time they'll still have the backwards approach to women and sex in general.
 
Gilly said:
Though I'm glad, this hasn't changed anything. They've done this to avoid international pressure.

Next time they'll still have the backwards approach to women and sex in general.
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Absolutely, this changes nothing and the damage has been done. I hope Western businesses start thinking twice about doing business in Dubai.

dpbadger said:
They also pardoned the rapist.
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Which just makes a mockery of the whole thing. I hope his trips up and cracks his head open
 
Does it ever occur to people that, well if you put out a very harsh judgement, then watch the world react, then let the person off while both having an excuse, to maintain foreign relationships and to point out to the home population that its seen as horrendous elsewhere is a GOOD thing.

The alternative is they let the women go, the local population think they are being too liberal and the local population are the ones that react to the decision, and they are more likely to push for harsher sentences in the future, to elect hardliners.

By pushing the hard sentence they let the world react and essentially shame people into realising how wrong the laws are there, the other way around you anger those same people and make them push for stronger laws.

Things change, slowly and over a VERY long time. Absurd and horrendous things happened in all western countries for thousands of years until relatively recently, expecting the entire world to be at the same stage of development is ridiculous, throughout history that hasn't been the case. Almost certainly at other times in history people have thought the same things about the UK, or US, in terms of being deemed backwards and awful societies.

If there is a way to gain local support for softening laws and treating women as equals, angering the locals who will then push out more liberal politicians/judges and the like will do FAR more harm than good.
 
drunkenmaster said:
Does it ever occur to people that, well if you put out a very harsh judgement, then watch the world react, then let the person off while both having an excuse, to maintain foreign relationships and to point out to the home population that its seen as horrendous elsewhere is a GOOD thing.

The alternative is they let the women go, the local population think they are being too liberal and the local population are the ones that react to the decision, and they are more likely to push for harsher sentences in the future, to elect hardliners.

By pushing the hard sentence they let the world react and essentially shame people into realising how wrong the laws are there, the other way around you anger those same people and make them push for stronger laws.

Things change, slowly and over a VERY long time. Absurd and horrendous things happened in all western countries for thousands of years until relatively recently, expecting the entire world to be at the same stage of development is ridiculous, throughout history that hasn't been the case. Almost certainly at other times in history people have thought the same things about the UK, or US, in terms of being deemed backwards and awful societies.

If there is a way to gain local support for softening laws and treating women as equals, angering the locals who will then push out more liberal politicians/judges and the like will do FAR more harm than good.
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That's an interesting way of looking at it. I think you make a good argument, although I'm not convinced that pardoning only foreigners and only in a few heavily publicised cases in which there are additional factors (in this case, the allegation of rape) is actually a GOOD thing, or that it will do anything to work in the way you argue it will. Perhaps it's the potential beginning of a start. Or perhaps it will have the opposite effect by increasing local resentment of foreigners because they're getting special treatment denied to the locals.

I think you're right to argue that any change has to come locally, but I think you're overly optimistic to argue that locals who support oppression as part of Islam will be shamed into realising how wrong it is by knowledge that most people in some secular countries think it's wrong. I think they have that knowledge already and disagree with us.
 
dpbadger said:
They also pardoned the rapist.
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They pardoned someone who was judged not guilty of rape and convicted of having sex outside of marriage, which isn't the same thing. I don't trust Dubai's legal system in the slightest, but that doesn't mean he's automatically guilty.

Do you always assume that anyone accused of anything by anyone is automatically guilty, or do you make your assumptions based on sex, "race" or whatever?
 
Raz said:
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You'd have to prove through Islamic sources that women were expected to cover up purely because "ankles might tempt another muslim".
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Are you arguing that isn't the reason? That would be odd, as it's not at all hard to find Islamic sources saying that women must be fully covered whenever they might be seen by any man who isn't their husband or close relative in order to prevent him sinning by having lustful thoughts.

You can find Islamic sources arguing that it's not necessary and even some arguing that it's a corruption of Islam and therefore forbidden, but Muslims who support it argue that it's a requirement of Islam and can quote chapter and verse to support that.
 
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