• Competitor rules

    Please remember that any mention of competitors, hinting at competitors or offering to provide details of competitors will result in an account suspension. The full rules can be found under the 'Terms and Rules' link in the bottom right corner of your screen. Just don't mention competitors in any way, shape or form and you'll be OK.

Nvidia Gameworks at Gamescom 2015

mmj_uk said:
GameWorks is likely much better for a developer than other middleware, not only will they get all of the libraries they need from a single source but it'll likely be far cheaper (if not free?) and they will get assistance from NVidia engineers who it's fair to say know a lot more about modern graphics hardware than your average game engine programmer.

It's no coincidence that developers are queuing up for GameWorks, if it wasn't beneficial to them then they would avoid it like they did Mantle.
Click to expand...

That makes sense, tho i would dispute them "Avoiding Mantle"
 
It is a one shop pit stop, that is a huge part of it. That and the support they receive during the process. You only need to look at the very small minority of games that ship on PC that have additional shaders and upgraded fidelity over other platforms without GameWorks. Enticing developers into including these effects would otherwise be no easy task as the incentive is tiny given the number of users able to take advantage of some of them. And depending on the size of the studio, simply giving them away for free isn't an option as the time and money to implement them isn't there.
 
humbug said:
That makes sense, tho i would dispute them "Avoiding Mantle"
Click to expand...

Feel free to make a huge list of games which adopted it then.

There may have been 200 developers in the beta but most of them would have just been taking an interest in the API, it never made any sense for developers to actually adopt Mantle in their games beyond being paid to do so.

GameWorks - Lots of software technologies to make their games look better, help from NVidia engineers = reduced development time = less expenditure.

Mantle - No benefits to developers = increased development time, more technical support = more expenditure. Mantle only ever benefitted AMD and to a lesser extent AMD gamers.
 
Last edited:
Silent_Scone said:
It is a one shop pit stop, that is a huge part of it. That and the support they receive during the process. You only need to look at the very small minority of games that ship on PC that have additional shaders and upgraded fidelity over other platforms without GameWorks. Enticing developers into including these effects would otherwise be no easy task as the incentive is tiny given the number of users able to take advantage of some of them. And depending on the size of the studio, simply giving them away for free isn't an option as the time and money to implement them isn't there.
Click to expand...

Yeah money has been an issue for devs in the last few years.

CryTek are a good example of this, on the brink of bankruptcy at one point, it would have been a real shame had it happened, they are on the leading edge of tech, they have some great talents and they are a nice bunch of people.

To survive they closed all but one studio, cut all the fat out and released their engine on a subscription basis and reformed as an engine developer and publishers.

They seem to be doing well like this, they have quite a few release developers under their wing, the engine is continuously upgraded, its very different now to what Crysis 3 was built on, i have watched it transform from what was at the leading edge but very buggy, to todays leading edge and much less buggy.

Anyway, i can see why it would suit developers if someone like Nvidia with big money do all the high tech stuff like what we see here, they don't need to do it themselves at great cost.

Having said that AMD do this too, they don't have Nvidia's resource yet despite this CryTek is one of the people they work with, have done since Crysis 3, its surprising how much of the tech in the Crysis 3 Engine and todays engine is as much AMD's work as it is CryTek.

And also FrostBite Engine from DICE.
 
Last edited:
humbug said:
Now i see where your confusion is.

I said Developers didn't need to use Game Works, your the one banging on about 'middle-ware', middle-ware in this context is a collective of Physics libraries, i'm saying Developers can use other 'middle-ware', they don't have to use Game Works.
Click to expand...

That is not what you said at all. You said game developers should not use game works, that everything in game works is easy and they should do it themselves, you then post videos of middleware and 3rd party game engines where you haven't coded it yourself, proving exactly why gameworks exists.

I'm still waiting for any kind of coherent argument from you.
And I'm still wait for a list of middleware that can do global illumination, facial animation, hair simulation, HBAO.
 
humbug said:
Yeah money has been an issue for devs in the last few years.

CryTek are a good example of this, on the brink of bankruptcy at one point, it would have been a real shame had it happened, they are on the leading edge of tech, they have some great talents and they are a nice bunch of people.

To survive they closed all but one studio, cut all the fat out and released their engine on a subscription basis and reformed as an engine developer and publishers.

They seem to be doing well like this, they have quite a few release developers under their wing, the engine is continuously upgraded, its very different now to what Crysis 3 was built on, i have watched it transform from what was at the leading edge but very buggy, to todays leading edge and much less buggy.

Anyway, i can see why it would suit developers if someone like Nvidia with big money do all the high tech stuff like what we see here, they don't need to do it themselves at great cost.

Having said that AMD do this too, they don't have Nvidia's resource yet despite this CryTek is one of the people they work with, have done since Crysis 3, its surprising how much of the tech in the Crysis 3 Engine and todays engine is as much AMD's work as it is CryTek.

And also FrostBite Engine from DICE.
Click to expand...

So are we holding up DICE and frostbite as an example of what can be done without gameworks?
http://wccftech.com/nvidia-release-video-gamescom-showcasing-gameworks-newgen-blockbusters/

Mirrors edge catalyst: With GameWorks
 
andybird123 said:
Yeah, in the same link above, its still in development, they have a new trailer at Gamescom, cones out in october
Click to expand...

Yeah, sorry, I meant more I don't like how it's seemingly changed quite a lot and so far there's no sign of similar sieges. I played the alpha and...well, it was an alpha lol. But it felt nothing like I hoped it would.
 
The problem with something like UT is its packed with people who play it 6 hours a day everyday, the skill level of these people is out of this world and if you're not one of them you are cannon fodder.

I haven't played UT since UT2004, most of the people in UT4 Alpha have been playing it continuously since then, i did venture into it and got pasted all over the place before i knew what was going on, it wasn't fun. i was quite good in UT2004, that was many years ago,.
 
Last edited:
So Humbug's point was that Nvidia's middleware (GameWorks) effects can be achieved using other middleware?
Was this supposed to be a revelation?
Or was the point that he didn't like that Nvidia were advertising and promoting their middleware over the alternatives? Cuz surely that's the point of advertising?

I think the question is, would the games that used GameWorks/TressFX or the other middlewares out there (like the ones Humbug used) have included the effects they did if it wasn't for these libraries? Was it a choice of 'write it from scratch' or 'use a middleware' or was it a choice of 'include the optional effects' or 'don't include the optional effects'? I'd rather have the option and not use it than not have the option.

I have no problem with GameWorks, even if all it does is encourage someone else to do the same effects 'better'. The better GameWorks gets, the better the competition will have to be and as is so usually the case, competition usually works out good for us, the consumer.

Also remember when the panties were getting twisted in the Fury X thread saying how AMD people don't go into Nvidia related threads and argue... :D
 
GoogalyMoogaly said:
So Humbug's point was that Nvidia's middleware (GameWorks) effects can be achieved using other middleware?
Was this supposed to be a revelation?
Or was the point that he didn't like that Nvidia were advertising and promoting their middleware over the alternatives? Cuz surely that's the point of advertising?

I think the question is, would the games that used GameWorks/TressFX or the other middlewares out there (like the ones Humbug used) have included the effects they did if it wasn't for these libraries? Was it a choice of 'write it from scratch' or 'use a middleware' or was it a choice of 'include the optional effects' or 'don't include the optional effects'? I'd rather have the option and not use it than not have the option.

I have no problem with GameWorks, even if all it does is encourage someone else to do the same effects 'better'. The better GameWorks gets, the better the competition will have to be and as is so usually the case, competition usually works out good for us, the consumer.

Also remember when the panties were getting twisted in the Fury X thread saying how AMD people don't go into Nvidia related threads and argue... :D
Click to expand...

People are welcome to their opinion in any thread as far as I am concerned and they are welcome to discuss the good and bad of GameWorks but I do scratch my head when someone says that Devs should not be using middleware for games and to prove his point uses miuddleware for his demo's :confused:

The price and time constraints on devs is tight. Just look at the recent news about Konami and their supposed treatment of their employee's and treating them no better than slaves! I am a bit of a realist and can see why they would choose GameWorks over building a new engine for every game. Ohhh and I am big into a game called "Dreamfall Chapters". This runs at 27 fps in some places at 1440P with all settings maxed and whilst it is pretty, it isn't exactly showing why it should be that demanding. This game is a Steam greenlight game and they just don't have the resources or the money. Should we get the pitchforks out on them?
 
Perhaps I'm misunderstanding but wasn't Humbug's point that a game dev could use middleware that doesn't favour a particular brand, rather than one that does?!

I don't think he was saying that game dev's shouldn't use pre-existing middleware.

Maybe I missed something :confused:
 
iB CoMpL3XiTy said:
Perhaps I'm misunderstanding but wasn't Humbug's point that a game dev could use middleware that doesn't favour a particular brand, rather than one that does?!

I don't think he was saying that game dev's shouldn't use pre-existing middleware.

Maybe I missed something :confused:
Click to expand...

Thank you. I said i would prefer it if they did a lot of this stuff themselves, for various reasons, but i do accept there are reasons as to why that's not always possible.

I think its time to move on :)
 
Last edited:
just going to point-out one thing

Humbug your videos maybe be cool & all, but Testing your physx Vs a Game for example like Witcher 3 running hairworks is tottally different.

Witcher 3 - is running AI/Huge open world of liights shadows & people
Yours - A ball in a sandbox

yes gameworks performance is not great,but you cannot compare sandbox vs real game.

i agree performance on gameworks should be better, but developers use the tech ocassionaly rather than heavy usage
 
iB CoMpL3XiTy said:
Perhaps I'm misunderstanding but wasn't Humbug's point that a game dev could use middleware that doesn't favour a particular brand, rather than one that does?!

I don't think he was saying that game dev's shouldn't use pre-existing middleware.

Maybe I missed something :confused:
Click to expand...

humbug said:
Thank you. I said i would prefer it if they did a lot of this stuff themselves, for various reasons, but i do accept there are reasons as to why that's not always possible.

I think its time to move on :)
Click to expand...

Nope, humbug said that devs shouldn't use gameworks and should do everything themselves, he then tried to argue that they should use "bullet physics" because it's "not a library", when that's exactly what it is

he does now seem to have accepted that most devs DO use middleware, but at one point he was very clearly saying that they shouldn't and has now changed his tune without actually admitting that he was wrong on anything, which is normal for humbug
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom