Nvidia GameWorks HBAO+ Behind Visual Corruption In Gears Of War Ultimate Edition

[tommybhoy]

^
Exactly, it's just a convenience when something goes your way, every dirty trick under the sun is used in business, can't be proved 99.9% of the time, that's how they make as much money as they do-they burn the competition to make coin.

Not quite sure just how NVidia are benefiting from this, the wont get revenue from the game sales, unless there is some weird royalty payment for Gameworks involved in game sale numbers and even then they would want it to sell well so they get more cash. They get loads of bad publicity for the shocking state of the game and it's Gameworks association. it just seems not a good situation for NVidia.

They make coin from the likes of me dumping AMD and going Nv all because of GW's dirty tricks.

I never get these type of comments either, an answer of 'it is out there' is just useless.

As useless as prove it, hence the 'see what I did there' but don't let that stop the tomfoolery...

(in this country at least you have to prove guilt not innocence) The original post was a massive hate fest on NVidia and Microsoft, when this issue over this particular game is more or less completely down to Microsoft anyway.

On the part I discussed with stanners(didn't have an opinion either way with his MS cosying up with Nv because of Vulkan before you go there), prove his guilt that he was talking rubbish then.

Yes I did see the venom in his post but again had no opinion on the parts I never commented on.

 

[Stanners]

Well this has rumbled on. Can we all agree Microsoft do not hate AMD

(That we know of )

 

[humbug]

Well this has rumbled on. Can we all agree Microsoft do not hate AMD

(That we know of )

No they just hate PC Gamers and anyone who challenges their PC API monopoly.

Its nothing personal, its just business.

 

[maonayze]

No they just hate PC Gamers and anyone who challenges their PC API monopoly.

Its nothing personal, its just business.

And unfortunately it's US, the gamers who are getting shafted by this business no matter which cards you currently have in your system or buy in the future.

What we need are Devs who want to put their games out and have them perform to their utmost levels of performance regardless of which card it runs on. I want both Nvidia and AMD cards to run these new games to the best of each cards ability.

We are not getting this at the moment and it is hurting PC gamers.

If this isnt a call to arms for Vulkan, Linux and Valve then I don't know what is.

I for one am getting seriously fed up of all this BS.

 

[LambChop]

And unfortunately it's US, the gamers who are getting shafted by this business no matter which cards you currently have in your system or buy in the future.

What we need are Devs who want to put their games out and have them perform to their utmost levels of performance regardless of which card it runs on. I want both Nvidia and AMD cards to run these new games to the best of each cards ability.

We are not getting this at the moment and it is hurting PC gamers.

If this isnt a call to arms for Vulkan, Linux and Valve then I don't know what is.

I for one am getting seriously fed up of all this BS.

I dont think MS would let that happen. MS has way to much of a say in what goes on with huge financial muscle.

 

[Poneros]

Just stop putting money into their pockets. Change will come in no other way.

 

[GoogalyMoogaly]

And unfortunately it's US, the gamers who are getting shafted by this business no matter which cards you currently have in your system or buy in the future.

What we need are Devs who want to put their games out and have them perform to their utmost levels of performance regardless of which card it runs on. I want both Nvidia and AMD cards to run these new games to the best of each cards ability.

We are not getting this at the moment and it is hurting PC gamers.

If this isnt a call to arms for Vulkan, Linux and Valve then I don't know what is.

I for one am getting seriously fed up of all this BS.

People do love to bring up Linux like it's some magic solution that is perfect other than not having a graphics API to compete with DX.
With so many different distros of Linux surely it's just adding another variable into the mix and probably doesn't help developers if they have to make sure a game runs on the majority of them.

As I believe humbug has said just generally using Linux is probably more complicated for the vast majority of people. I've recently started playing about with a Raspberry Pi and found that it's quite a bit more involved trying to get it to play Twitch/Amazon/Netflix streams than it is on a Windows PC where you can just use a web browser. Chrome may work, but there's not a version of Chrome that will work on Raspbian Linux (If anyone knows how to install Chrome or play Amazon/Netflix through a Pi without paying for another service please let me know).

That's just one example.

Plus, you can use Vulkan on Windows right? As long as the Windows Store doesn't become the only way to play games in Windows...

I've no idea of your experience with Linux maonayze so this may not apply to you, but it just feels like Linux is a buzzword that people use now. Linux has been around for a while and some games are perfectly playable on it using OpenGL. there are possible a lot of games that would be playable in it using OpenGL but the developers didn't bother. I'm not sure that the fact that Vulkan works under Linux and that Linux is becoming a buzzword on forums is necessarily enough to change everything to the point where Linux is the gaming OS of choice.

From my point f view I'd probably lose 80-90% of my back-catalogue.

 

[KillBoY_UK]

Sounds like developer incompetence. HBAO+ has been used in many games without such issue. Looking at this, the performance impact is actually higher on NV hardware than it is AMD. http://www.overclock3d.net/reviews/gpu_displays/fallout_4_retested_hbao_performance_impact/1

But yea. Lets not let that get in the way of this giving the same tedious bores a chance to repeat their tired old dogma.

I know but the anti Nvidia brigade will put there fingers in there ears, the same with CPU PhysX plenty of games use it just fine.

 

[ICDP]

I know but the anti Nvidia brigade will put there fingers in there ears, the same with CPU PhysX plenty of games use it just fine.

Nvidia Gameworks HBAO+ etc uses code provided by Nvidia and when it causes problems it looks bad for Nvidia. Nvidia should be doing better QC on any software that comes out in such a sorry state when using their Gameworks blackbox.

You are claiming the anti Nvidia brigade are blaming Nvidia when it was all MS at fault. You are giving Nvidia a bye ball and proclaiming they are not at fault which is not true. If a major developer implements Nvidia code poorly then it is partly the fault of Nvidia for allowing that to happen.

To date we have had many issues with games using Gameworks code. These issues range from serious performance issues for no tangible IQ improvements such as FO4 Godrays, Witcher 3 Hairworks excessive tessellation and SSAA. Right through to pretty much broken messes such as Batman Arkham Knight and GOW. Yet the Nvidia zealots will still proclaim Gameworks as good for PC gamers despite these repeated problems and outright **** ups.

Most or all of these issues affected ALL PC gamers with either Nvidia or AMD GPUs. Gameworks failures are vendor agnostic and those who defend it refuse or fail to see that. Nothing Gamworks does cannot be done in a better way, it is just lazy devs using black box unpotimised graphical effects rather than an actual optimised version of their own.

 

[nashathedog]

I'd probably lose 80-90% of my back-catalogue.

That's the big issue, Moving to Linux would mean losing a lot of enjoyable games, Unless they change that it won't ever be a viable option.

 

[KillBoY_UK]

Nvidia Gameworks HBAO+ etc uses code provided by Nvidia and when it causes problems it looks bad for Nvidia. Nvidia should be doing better QC on any software that comes out in such a sorry state when using their Gameworks blackbox.

You are claiming the anti Nvidia brigade are blaming Nvidia when it was all MS at fault. You are giving Nvidia a bye ball and proclaiming they are not at fault which is not true. If a major developer implements Nvidia code poorly then it is partly the fault of Nvidia for allowing that to happen.

To date we have had many issues with games using Gameworks code. These issues range from serious performance issues for no tangible IQ improvements such as FO4 Godrays, Witcher 3 Hairworks excessive tessellation and SSAA. Right through to pretty much broken messes such as Batman Arkham Knight and GOW. Yet the Nvidia zealots will still proclaim Gameworks as good for PC gamers despite these repeated problems and outright **** ups.

Most or all of these issues affected ALL PC gamers with either Nvidia or AMD GPUs. Gameworks failures are vendor agnostic and those who defend it refuse or fail to see that. Nothing Gamworks does cannot be done in a better way, it is just lazy devs using black box unpotimised graphical effects rather than an actual optimised version of their own.

The OP and the main article highlight both PhysX/Nvidia/HBAO+ and you think the Nvidia haters wont jump on that ? The middleware is just that middleware some developers use it badly some wont. Heck there's far more games out there that use CPU PhysX (in a similar manner to CPU physics with Havok) and HBAO+ just fine but you hardly hear about those games in threads like this.

Dev's made buggy games before the likes of Gameworks, HBAO+ etc. I just get a little annoyed and the angle articles and threads like this take.

 

[LambChop]

Nvidia Gameworks HBAO+ etc uses code provided by Nvidia and when it causes problems it looks bad for Nvidia. Nvidia should be doing better QC on any software that comes out in such a sorry state when using their Gameworks blackbox.

You are claiming the anti Nvidia brigade are blaming Nvidia when it was all MS at fault. You are giving Nvidia a bye ball and proclaiming they are not at fault which is not true. If a major developer implements Nvidia code poorly then it is partly the fault of Nvidia for allowing that to happen.

To date we have had many issues with games using Gameworks code. These issues range from serious performance issues for no tangible IQ improvements such as FO4 Godrays, Witcher 3 Hairworks excessive tessellation and SSAA. Right through to pretty much broken messes such as Batman Arkham Knight and GOW. Yet the Nvidia zealots will still proclaim Gameworks as good for PC gamers despite these repeated problems and outright **** ups.

Most or all of these issues affected ALL PC gamers with either Nvidia or AMD GPUs. Gameworks failures are vendor agnostic and those who defend it refuse or fail to see that. Nothing Gamworks does cannot be done in a better way, it is just lazy devs using black box unpotimised graphical effects rather than an actual optimised version of their own.

You should be chuffed, I read all the way through until I seen Nvidia getting blamed for Batman then stopped. You did well there with your rant till that point. Full of tip top guesses with a hint of factual nonsense.

 

[ICDP]

The OP and the main article highlight both PhysX/Nvidia/HBAO+ and you think the Nvidia haters wont jump on that ? The middleware is just that middleware some developers use it badly some wont. Heck there's far more games out there that use CPU PhysX (in a similar manner to CPU physics with Havok) and HBAO+ just fine but you hardly hear about those games in threads like this.

Dev's made buggy games before the likes of Gameworks, HBAO+ etc. I just get a little annoyed and the angle articles and threads like this take.

Because buggy games were released in the past does not excuse the fact it happens in the present of future. MS are mostly to blame on this but one of the things I constantly hear is how Nvidia are awesome because they actively work with developers to help optimise their games etc. In this case MS release GOW with Nvidia gameworks code and it is a buggy mess. This makes Nvidia look bad yet we still have people defending them saying "hardly Nvidia's fault is it".

If MS used Gameworks they need to licence it from Nvidia which means they must collaborate with Nvidia to ensure it is implemented correctly. The fact the game was released in a buggy mess on both Nvidia and AMD hardware is down to MS and Nvidia failing at QC. People keep buying this crud and even defending these kind of actions from devs and GPU vendors.

 

[bru]

Microsoft are trashy, Nvidia are trashy, even AMD with all their good intentions and shouting about open standards, are still trashy. what we need to do is abandon all this proprietary nonsense and speak with our wallets, switch to free open source stuff, make these companies suffer, by not giving them our cash.

This message was brought to you using windows 10, so I guess that makes me a hypocrite.

Of course Microsoft pay me to use Windows 10 just because it makes my life easier, it allows me to do the things I want to do and when the results of my labour are not quite as good as the public expect, Nvidia sorry I mean Microsoft because they have paid me to use Gameworks sorry I mean windows 10 they don't care, they have spent their money what is it to them is the end product is rubbish.

There are some people out there who will know exactly what I mean and there are others who will might be thinking how stupid or ignorant I am. Well that is fine as that is your opinion as this is mine.

 

[D.P.]

Because buggy games were released in the past does not excuse the fact it happens in the present of future. MS are mostly to blame on this but one of the things I constantly hear is how Nvidia are awesome because they actively work with developers to help optimise their games etc. In this case MS release GOW with Nvidia gameworks code and it is a buggy mess. This makes Nvidia look bad yet we still have people defending them saying "hardly Nvidia's fault is it".

If MS used Gameworks they need to licence it from Nvidia which means they must collaborate with Nvidia to ensure it is implemented correctly. The fact the game was released in a buggy mess on both Nvidia and AMD hardware is down to MS and Nvidia failing at QC. People keep buying this crud and even defending these kind of actions from devs and GPU vendors.

It only makes Nvidia look bad in the eyes of AMD fanboys. Rational people will think GOW makes the developer, i.e. Microsoft look bad. In fact, AFAIK there is no where in the game that tells users that it uses Nvidia's HBAO+ Gamesworks features.


Sattements like this "If MS used Gameworks they need to licence it from Nvidia which means they must collaborate with Nvidia to ensure it is implemented correctly" are just meaningless. Nvidia's is absolutely not responsible for what a developer does in the slightest, no more than Google is responsible if a developer makes a terrible Android app, or Toyota is responsible if you are a bad driver. These companies just provide a tool, how that tool is used is down to the client.


Nvidia is not responsible for developer QC, the developer and publisher are. Gamesworks is just a middleware library

 

[Nexus18]

Sorry but didn't you (D.P.) say many times about how nvidia send engineers out on site to help implement all these effects and do QC checks etc, what was it... "nvidia's time is money" as you put it.... but no I guess that statement doesn't suit your agenda now?

 

[D.P.]

Sorry but didn't you (D.P.) say many times about how nvidia send engineers out on site to help implement all these effects and do QC checks etc, what was it... "nvidia's time is money" as you put it.... but no I guess that statement doesn't suit your agenda now?

They sometimes do, they don't always and it isn't a requirement to use gamesworks to have nvidia engineers to do the developers QC work for them. GOW isn't a Nvidia sponsored game AFAIK, MS just used the gamesworks library under license. Moreover, Nvidia wont spend resources making sure GW works under AMD hardware. AFAIK HBAO+ is working correctly on Nvidia hardware in GOW, and we know it actually runs faster on AMD hardware in other titles, therefore the developer and AMD are squarely to blame for any problems on AMD's side. And that is obvious from looking at the results where different GCN architectures have very different results. I don't think it is any coincidence that the GCN architecture that most closely matches the consoles does the best form AMD side.

So no, nice try but you completely miss the point.

 

[Freddie1980]

^
Exactly, it's just a convenience when something goes your way, every dirty trick under the sun is used in business, can't be proved 99.9% of the time, that's how they make as much money as they do-they burn the competition to make coin.


They make coin from the likes of me dumping AMD and going Nv all because of GW's dirty tricks.

As of right now Nvidia has the discrete market nearly all to itself as a result it competes with itself as the few remaining AMD users aren't going to benefit them by switching to Geforce as much as existing customers upgrading to the newest products would do. Look at Project Cars, old gen Kepler vs new gen maxwell and there is a strong argument to me made that with Gameworks Nvidia can artificially control performance in GW titles to make there latest products look much more dominate then they actually are.

 

[Nexus18]

They sometimes do, they don't always and it isn't a requirement to use gamesworks to have nvidia engineers to do the developers QC work for them. GOW isn't a Nvidia sponsored game AFAIK, MS just used the gamesworks library under license. Moreover, Nvidia wont spend resources making sure GW works under AMD hardware. AFAIK HBAO+ is working correctly on Nvidia hardware in GOW, and we know it actually runs faster on AMD hardware in other titles, therefore the developer and AMD are squarely to blame for any problems on AMD's side. And that is obvious from looking at the results where different GCN architectures have very different results. I don't think it is any coincidence that the GCN architecture that most closely matches the consoles does the best form AMD side.

So no, nice try but you completely miss the point.

As expected....

 

[D.P.]

As expected, a ridiculous trolling reply