May be harder for them to do it in the GPU sphere - by all reports TSMC 7nm is twice the price per wafer that nVidia is getting from Samsung. By the looks of it AMD is going to bring some very interesting performance this time around but those hoping they will disrupt on price are likely to be disappointed.
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Nvidia prices the norm?
- Thread starter Jasoncmor
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May be harder for them to do it in the GPU sphere - by all reports TSMC 7nm is twice the price per wafer that nVidia is getting from Samsung. By the looks of it AMD is going to bring some very interesting performance this time around but those hoping they will disrupt on price are likely to be disappointed.
What does that wafer price increase equate to though? If a single chip goes up from $10 to $20 it might be a 100% increase but it's only a 1% increase on a $1000 GPU.
With a $10K wafer and TSMC's current defect density you are looking at more like 10x those prices per core for a upper tier GPU. And that is just materials.
Okay, so about $100 increase in materials per GPU? That shouldn't necessitate any other cost increases though as nothing else changes just the cost of the GPU chip. Any extra rise sounds like an excuse to tack on some more profit to me.
Rroff once again with his disinformation propaganda... Jayz2c is that you? How much do Nvidia pay you?
Dec 2019
https://hardforum.com/threads/tsmc-actual-7nm-defect-rate-and-therefore-yield-revealed.1989911/
However some people probably read a recent article saying 5nm yields are better than 7nm yields and spin it off like 7nm us terrible..
No, actually it just means 5nm at the stage its in is ahead if where 7nm was, but 7nm yields are excellent, so expect 5nm to be even better
https://www.anandtech.com/show/16028/better-yield-on-5nm-than-7nm-tsmc-update-on-defect-rates-for-n5
So no, 7nm yields are very good, stop talking nonsense
Also if you read this https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...FjANegQIBBAB&usg=AOvVaw22SbijP6MY5qbXdtX7zSat
You will see as we move to smaller nodes the costs per chip on the wafer drop, as you fit more chips on the wafer to spread the costs over, and if 7nm is 80+ yield then the costs per chip are lower than previous node if their yield was lower.
Also it looks like 6nm makes it even more cost effective and i fully expect a lot of AMDs products to get moved to this, as its actually technically easier to migrate to TSMC 6nm rather than their 7nm+, recent leaked info shows AMD using 6nm for something as well
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Rroff once again with his disinformation propaganda... Jayz2c is that you? How much do Nvidia pay you?
Dec 2019
https://hardforum.com/threads/tsmc-actual-7nm-defect-rate-and-therefore-yield-revealed.1989911/
However some people probably read a recent article saying 5nm yields are better than 7nm yields and spin it off like 7nm us terrible..
No, actually it just means 5nm at the stage its in is ahead if where 7nm was, but 7nm yields are excellent, so expect 5nm to be even better
https://www.anandtech.com/show/16028/better-yield-on-5nm-than-7nm-tsmc-update-on-defect-rates-for-n5
So no, 7nm yields are very good, stop talking nonsense
Also if you read this https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.icknowledge.com/news/Technology%20and%20Cost%20Trends%20at%20Advanced%20Nodes%20-%20Revised.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwiNn6uH34jsAhUGhlwKHaBhDB4QFjANegQIBBAB&usg=AOvVaw22SbijP6MY5qbXdtX7zSat
You will see as we move to smaller nodes the costs per chip on the wafer drop, as you fit more chips on the wafer to spread the costs over, and if 7nm is 80+ yield then the costs per chip are lower than previous node if their yield was lower.
Also it looks like 6nm makes it even more cost effective and i fully expect a lot of AMDs products to get moved to this, as its actually technically easier to migrate to TSMC 6nm rather than their 7nm+, recent leaked info shows AMD using 6nm for something as well
Read what I said again... you need to use the defect density and wafer price as a rough approximation (keeping in mind there are other factors) along with the likely core size to work out how many working cores (usually it will be a mixture to reduce losses) are likely to be produced from a wafer and hence price structure. (This doesn't take into account things like defect free cores which have poor ASIC quality, etc.).
I never made any claim as to whether the defect density is currently good or bad. Currently TSMC 7nm wafers are a bit costly, even to AMD, which will mean they are unlikely to be able to be disruptive on price almost regardless of yields at the likely core sizes.
EDIT: If the yields were poor we'd quickly be looking at much higher prices again than 10x what he was talking - you have to take into account die size and defect density when looking at yields.
Only works when you either shrink an existing design at the same performance level and/or can take advantage of a higher clock speed on a new node to scale performance while using less space - if you maintain or even go for a bigger core so as to fit more in your price tends to go up. Often half the performance gain comes from being able to fit things like more shader units in the same die size as a previous generation negating the ability to produce more cores from a wafer.
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