Nvidia’s GameWorks program usurps power from developers, end-users, and AMD

Gregster · 29 Dec 2013 at 08:01

Marine-RX179 said:
Not sure if you are looking at the right graphic, but the middle graphic on Tom's clearly showing the 7970 ahead of the GTX670/GTX680 on dx9, but fall behind at dx11...by a huge chunk as well.

Sorry if I am not grasping it. Humbug is saying that the 7970 can handle tesselation better (and I think you are?) but the guy on the original article is claiming that Nvidia are adding this amount of tesselation to cripple the competitor.

I had a crap nights sleep and full of cold, so excuse me if I am missing something. Is he wrong in the original article then?

Marine-RX179 · 29 Dec 2013 at 08:19

Gregster said:
Sorry if I am not grasping it. Humbug is saying that the 7970 can handle tesselation better (and I think you are?) but the guy on the original article is claiming that Nvidia are adding this amount of tesselation to cripple the competitor.

I had a crap nights sleep and full of cold, so excuse me if I am missing something. Is he wrong in the original article then?

I'm not really thoroughly reading through this thread, but I don't think using such extremely level of tessellation on objects that doesn'y really make much (if any visual difference) is rather pointless especially for objects underground that's not even in sight, flat surfaces covered under snow, batman's cape etc.

I don't know what humbug said (I generally don't read much of his posts), but I myself is not entirely certain of the 79xx cards performance (strictly the tessellation performance) is as good as the GK104's. I mean if the GK104 really has better tessellation performance, it's no doubt that excessive level of tessellation on objects that don't require it is just for the sake of having the GK104 cards look more competitive in every reviews. It doesn't really hurt AMD user in "real world usage", as there's option to reduce the level of tessellation under ccc. The excessive level of tessellation however does hurt users (Nvidia and AMD alike) who are less in the know and don't know about turning down the tessellation level and use their cards as is (I think). Also, I'm not familar with Nvidia's control panel...does it has the option to turn down the tessellation like AMD's ccc does?

Gregster · 29 Dec 2013 at 08:33

Marine-RX179 said:
I'm not really thoroughly reading through this thread, but I don't think using such extremely level of tessellation on objects that doesn'y really make much (if any visual difference) is rather pointless especially for objects underground that's not even in sight, flat surfaces covered under snow, batman's cape etc.

I don't know what humbug said (I generally don't read much of his posts), but I myself is not entirely certain of the 79xx cards performance (strictly the tessellation performance) is as good as the GK104's. I mean if the GK104 really has better tessellation performance, it's no doubt that excessive level of tessellation on objects that don't require it is just for the sake of having the GK104 cards look more competitive in every reviews. It doesn't really hurt AMD user in "real world usage", as there's option to reduce the level of tessellation under ccc. The excessive level of tessellation however does hurt users (Nvidia and AMD alike) who are less in the know and don't know about turning down the tessellation level and use their cards as is (I think). Also, I'm not familar with Nvidia's control panel...does it has the option to turn down the tessellation like AMD's ccc does?

GK104 has always been a bit pants with tesselation, so if anything, it would harm Nvidia more. I guess my point is the original article is flawed and he has things wrong. He could have a point about GameWorks being completely locked out but looking around the internet, AMD users have posted how pleased they are with performance post AMD driver fixes and this just has me baffled to what is what. The original article said Nvidia control the optimizations but AMD released a driver that gave optimizations. The original article claimed Nvidia deals with tesselation better than AMD and it was always my understanding on GK104 Vs Southern Islands that AMD had the better of Nvidia when tesselation was used. The whole article just seems flawed and with the state of how this runs on AMD, I am still failing to see an issue... Bah, maybe I am missing something.

Silent_Scone · 29 Dec 2013 at 08:52

Nothing is crippled for anyone Greg. Performance was fixed in a patch and with latter driver updates.

Something that happened in Battlefield 4 with Nvidia performance. It's misleading. If anything it should be titled Crysis 2 poorly optimised.

However Nvidia has better tessellation performance. Something it still has to this very day. I can't be the only one who thinks all the jabs at deliberately crippling the opposition are stupid. People can't think very highly of Crytek in that case.

Maybe the Heaven 4.0 bench is part of GameWorks

Gregster · 29 Dec 2013 at 09:09

Meh.... I need to go back to bed me thinks. I was working off a poor memory with Tessellation in Heaven (funnily enough) and seeing how the 7970 would beat my 680 quite easily made me think it was favouring AMD more.

Anyways, I look forward to responses to how AMD released drivers that optimized Batman: AO 24 hours after the game was released and yet, the article claims that optimizations are in the hands of Nvidia....

Silent_Scone · 29 Dec 2013 at 09:14

And also maybe some clarification why AC4 and Blacklist are not on the chopping board for it? Seems a case of little to no tessellation > no quibbles :/

Gregster · 29 Dec 2013 at 09:19

Good point.

Final8y · 29 Dec 2013 at 09:20

Crysis 2 Tessellation

Default
http://img138.imageshack.us/img138/9343/crysis2default.jpg

AMD Optimized Tessellation
http://img51.imageshack.us/img51/9477/crysis2amdoptim.jpg

64x Tessellation
http://img710.imageshack.us/img710/7738/crysis2x64.jpg

32x Tessellation
http://img33.imageshack.us/img33/3623/crysis2x32.jpg

16x Tessellation
http://img802.imageshack.us/img802/4497/crysis2x16.jpg slight spiking

Marine-RX179 · 29 Dec 2013 at 09:32

MjFrosty said:
However Nvidia has better tessellation performance. Something it still has to this very day. I can't be the only one who thinks all the jabs at deliberately crippling the opposition are stupid. People can't think very highly of Crytek in that case.

I thought the dx11 patch for Crysis was added months after the game was released, as which point most people already completed the games? It was also the precise timing that tessellation was all the rage during that period as well.

Anyway, putting the whole tessellation deal aside, I don't know why would it be a good thing for Nvidia to take away the power from developers and AMD to optimised performance for games post-release.

People keep comparing GameWorks to Mantle, when the two are completely different in nature.

From what I read and understood so far (I could be right, I could be wrong) Mantle is more like:
Traditionally dx is like a higherway, which both Nvidia and AMD have to use for their vehicles. But AMD developed Mantle, it is essentially like a toll road/tunnel- a shoutcut away from the highway which was built around AMD's cars spec; Nvidia can't use the tunnel natively because their vehicles are too tall, so they must modify the design of their vehicle accordingly to the tunnel's height restriction so that their vehicles can use the tunnel as well. And during this time, there's nothing stopping them from increasing the speed of their existing vehicle to travel faster on the highway;

Now for GameWorks, it is more like:
GameWorks is Nvidia's home-turf, dx is its race track and AMD is the guest challenger. However because it is Nvidia's home-turf, they ban AMD from the option to use the pit-stop (aka optimisation)...so anything broken down and require fixing it cannot be done; while the use of pit-stop is still freely available for Nvidia themselves to use. Now tell me...is this anyway to do a fair and just competition?

Am I misinterpreting or misrepresenting the difference between Mantle and GameWorks?

Silent_Scone · 29 Dec 2013 at 09:48

They're not the same at core / fundamentally but the principles at which the whining (and it is just finger pointing let's face it) is the same. Nvidia currently has it's fingers in more pies than AMD if you exclude future Mantle titles. The tallest trees always take the most wind . It is no different to the poor optimisation in Tomb Raider at launch. Poor comms between firms lead to lack of up to date drivers being tested in the gold build.

Another conspiracy to be read into? See a trend here? A very tiresome, dead end thread trend.

I think people who disagree with how GamesWorks effects their experience should be asking themselves why the developers are choosing to use it in the first place when it has this apparent potential to cripple the opposition. Which is currently just exhibit A: Batman snow and cape tessellation.

Gregster · 29 Dec 2013 at 10:00

Right, so some more digging about, I found this article from Nvidia.

GameWorks in Action

We’ve dispatched our engineers to work onsite with top game developers and add effects, tweak performance, fix bugs, and train developers in open standards and work hand-in-hand with our game laboratory.

- See more at: http://blogs.nvidia.com/blog/2013/10/17/twimtbp/#sthash.RlNvS5v0.dpuf

That doesn't sound like they have made GameWorks libraries attainable by Nvidia only and looks like they work alongside the game devs to teach them how GameWorks libraries works.

“Assassin’s Creed IV: Black Flag,” “Batman: Arkham Origins,” and “Call of Duty: Ghosts”are among the new titles built with the help of NVIDIA’s GameWorks program.

So 2 other titles in the GameWorks games are COD: Ghosts

And AC4

Both GameWorks TWIMTBP titles and yet, AMD are doing very well in these games.

Silent_Scone · 29 Dec 2013 at 10:10

Considering Ghosts has been jabbed for poor optimisation I'd say looks like decent results. Especially with Ghosts using a fair amount of tessellation

.

I just think it's a lot of fuss over nothing. AMD has fixed Batman. They did so in under 24 hours. Well done AMD and nobody got hurt in the process

pgi947 · 29 Dec 2013 at 10:28

A point I tried to make earlier greg, albeit with less ammo. Good find and surely puts this thread to bed now.

Ian Evey · 29 Dec 2013 at 10:42

Crysis 2 with those hd textures and tessalation were awsome looking, Even at 1920x1200 res using a 670 the game ran very nicely indeed at max settings.

Unlike crysis 3, which i will wait to play when i have a new gfx card.

pgi947 · 29 Dec 2013 at 10:47

Ian Evey said:
Crysis 2 with those hd textures and tessalation were awsome looking, Even at 1920x1200 res using a 670 the game ran very nicely indeed at max settings.

Unlike crysis 3, which i will wait to play when i have a new gfx card.

I found crysis 3 fully maxed to be needlessly demanding at 1080, dial down the aa it still looks brilliant and should still run well on a 670. Fully maxed is even a bit of a push on dual 780's.

Gregster · 29 Dec 2013 at 11:01

pgi947 said:
A point I tried to make earlier greg, albeit with less ammo. Good find and surely puts this thread to bed now.

Yep, I don't see anything that can be added except a statement from WB Montreal now.

Doco · 29 Dec 2013 at 12:26

Havnt read the full thread (can blame me) 1st and last page lol, first page looked like Id have a dire experience if/when I picked up origins,but this page makes it look a bit brighter :-)

, stilk waiting for a decent price drop! So who knows whay updates etc will ne released by the time I get my hands on it

Gregster · 29 Dec 2013 at 12:32

Doco said:
Havnt read the full thread (can blame me) 1st and last page lol, first page looked like Id have a dire experience if/when I picked up origins,but this page makes it look a bit brighter , stilk waiting for a decent price drop! So who knows whay updates etc will ne released by the time I get my hands on it

You don't need them, as I linked a bench that even a 7870 was getting fantastic fps with 4XMSAA

Get the game and enjoy it as much as I am

Doco · 29 Dec 2013 at 12:37

Jesus my typos are horrible! I blame my phone :-P

, thats on 1080p though Im pretty sure I should be okay at a higher resolution, il def pick it up when the price drops, can get it for just under 15 quid but I thinks its gfwl and not steam redeamable

Gregster · 29 Dec 2013 at 13:13

GFWL is finished and it will be Steam redeemable